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  1. #1381
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    I don't like what happened as a result of COIE, but that's different from not liking the comic. As a corporate decision, I hate the aftermath. As a work of art, I like the crossover event itself.

    The irony of COIE is that it was created to fix a corporate problem--what they thought was stopping more consumers from buying DC, which was supposedly the over-complicated Multiverse. But as a work of art it proved how great the Multiverse is, since all of that continuity (50 years worth) provided the material to build this huge event, which remains the biggest event that DC has ever had. And then because of COIE that kind of event was ruled out from happening again.

  2. #1382
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    It's pretty rich how often all the complaints about the Bat books being too dark and morose come from people wanting to have characters they dislike killed off.
    I think this one is targeted at me and it's a fair criticism. I think Damian is the only character I'd like to see go, but that's because I genuinely feel like he damages the Robin role; he wants nothing to do with Batman except be him and is morose on top of the morose Bruce. It just ruins the entire dynamic. I'm fine with him going somewhere else as long as Robin is someone who, well, fulfills what makes the role fun.

  3. #1383
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I think this one is targeted at me and it's a fair criticism. I think Damian is the only character I'd like to see go, but that's because I genuinely feel like he damages the Robin role; he wants nothing to do with Batman except be him and is morose on top of the morose Bruce. It just ruins the entire dynamic. I'm fine with him going somewhere else as long as Robin is someone who, well, fulfills what makes the role fun.
    I think Damian actually wants to be with Batman, either with his father (Bruce) or his father figure (Dick), and he's mellowed out a lot since his inception...but writers don't seem all that interested in writing Batman and Robin together.

  4. #1384
    Maintaining Status Q _Feely_'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    ...as a work of art it proved how great the Multiverse is, since all of that continuity (50 years worth) provided the material to build this huge event, which remains the biggest event that DC has ever had.
    Found getting through the story a pretty harrowing experience, but I wouldn't disagree with that statement.

  5. #1385
    Mighty Member witchboy's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Of the Trinity reboots, IMO the only one that has stood the test of time for the most part is Miller's Batman because it holds up the most on a craft level and implemented the fewest changes (and I don't even like it that much). Perez's Wonder Woman has great stuff mixed in with some so-so stuff and outright bad ideas, and Byrne's Superman is just godawful altogether with the exception of allowing Maggie Sawyer to be created. I know all of these were extremely popular at the time and still have devoted fans and are viewed as classics, but I think the stranglehold they have on the characters (especially Superman) are detrimental in the long run. It's not just because they are old comics from the 80s either. TDKR, Watchmen and the proto Vertigo stuff were coming out around the same time and hold up far better.

    Changes and updates can work within the confines of established continuity, and it would have been better to do so in the long run if they had. The Multiverse was not confusing, that was just a scapegoat they used to pull the trigger and get attention/sales boost. The few good things that came out of those revamps could have happened in the Pre-COIE history. Superman was already heading in some of those directions anyway, it would have been cleaner and wouldn't have resulted in the convoluted situations with Supergirl and the Legion. Donna Troy was ruined forever.

    I think it's fair to claim the New 52 as a whole was a bad idea. I think it was as well despite liking a few things from it. But I think it's also fair to say COIE was a bad idea. I have some favorite runs and stories from before that event that got altered or outright erased in the name of a sales boost, and it rankles. Like it's kind of annoying to read "Who is Donna Troy?", the greatest Donna issue ever published, and know it's gonna get erased a few issues later for something worse. It interrupts the flow of a story right in the middle of it. That's bad writing.
    I like Byrne's Superman, even though I think it had it's mistakes, getting rid of Supergirl and any other Kryptonians. Perez's WW I also like, the only criticism I have of it is that he made Steve Trevor so much older so he wouldn't be a love interest, and never developed Diana as sexual and romantic being.
    Batman Year One did have a few changes off the top of my head. Miller got rid of Barbara Gordon (she was eventually brought in but had to be Gordon's niece he adopted since Miller went out his way to make sure she didn't exist as Gordon's daughter), he made Selina a prostitute (which I know was retconed that she was just pretending to be a prostitute to rob men, but the retcon may have been un-retconed, it's hard to keep up). It's the most stereotypical thing Miller could do to make a female character be a prostitute.
    It's a small thing, but the art suggests that Selina was black, which is interesting but something that was ignored.

  6. #1386
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by witchboy View Post
    I like Byrne's Superman, even though I think it had it's mistakes, getting rid of Supergirl and any other Kryptonians. Perez's WW I also like, the only criticism I have of it is that he made Steve Trevor so much older so he wouldn't be a love interest, and never developed Diana as sexual and romantic being.
    Batman Year One did have a few changes off the top of my head. Miller got rid of Barbara Gordon (she was eventually brought in but had to be Gordon's niece he adopted since Miller went out his way to make sure she didn't exist as Gordon's daughter), he made Selina a prostitute (which I know was retconed that she was just pretending to be a prostitute to rob men, but the retcon may have been un-retconed, it's hard to keep up). It's the most stereotypical thing Miller could do to make a female character be a prostitute.
    It's a small thing, but the art suggests that Selina was black, which is interesting but something that was ignored.
    Those are really the reasons I don't personally care too much for Year One. But on a craft level, it's just a better written and less dated comic than the other two.

    Aging up Steve and Etta and shunting them off to the side is the big mistake of the Perez era, but I also don't care for the Amazons losing their technology (while other advanced societies in the DCU get to keep theirs) and although it wasn't Perez's call, the timeline stuff royally screwed up Donna. I like Diana not having a secret ID, getting full blown flight, some of the villain revamps and some of the new developed Amazon and Man's World characters, but none of that needed a reboot to happen. It's too reductive and not additive. Same with Superman. I think that's one of the reasons I hate COIE so much: I largely hate what it did to 2/3 of the Trinity (Batman and Superman) and have lots of mixed feelings on the third, and those are my three favorite characters.

  7. #1387
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That's the vibe I keep getting every time someone brings up COIE's flaws especially in this thread. And I don't think it is a coincidence that a lot of these criticisms of post crisis tend to come from fans of the New 52.
    I was not a fan of Nu52. I thought it was a good idea ruined by crap execution.

    I was a fan of Crisis, and Post-Crisis DCU. Looking back, however, Crisis was pretty bad in most departments, and did more harm than good.

    What criticisms of Crisis often miss is how much of its power lay in its novelty and ambition. No one had ever seen anything that big or sweeping; DC threaded almost every character in it's long history into an enormous story, and made gigantic changes. We're less impressed by that today, but it was mind-blowing at the time. It's also fair to say Post-Crisis injected a big dose of creative adrenaline into some titles that desperately needed it, and tried some fearlessly bold experiments (Suicide Squad and Booster Gold being standouts).

    Nonetheless, DC's spent almost everyday ever since trying to repair the harm Crisis did. All things considered, it wasn't worth it, and looking back, the story was a messy collage of excuses to showcase a variety of characters, and to clear redundancies.

  8. #1388
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    I just don't really see that much of a difference between how the big event stories were stuctured and plotted back in the 1980s vs. now. There's a basic plot structure that I spotted in the 1960s Gardner Fox and John Broome Batman stories and this is essentially the plot that most comics, movies and TV shows use: 1. Protagonist encounters Antagonist gets butt handed to him; 2. Protagonist withdraws to HQ, makes new plans; 3. Protagonist encounters Antagonist, delivers a can of whoop-ass [for longer stories rinse and repeat 1 and 2].

    I really don't see the vast improvement that comic book writers have made on this formula. If there are surprising and innovative comic book stories, they tend to be the ones that avoid that kind of plot completely and tell more personal stories like Mar-Vell coming to terms with his death and making peace with his destiny or Morpheus revisiting Will Shakespeare and giving him one last story to tell. But the big epic confrontations between heroes and villains usually generate the Fox plot.

    What people seem to fixate on is how much text is on the page; or what kind of panel breakdowns are used; or what art style is employed. But when you look past that to the underlying structure of the story-telling it's still the same old story, a fight for love and glory, a case of do or die.

  9. #1389
    Astonishing Member batnbreakfast's Avatar
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    DC should pick an artist and make Ben Affleck's Batman screenplay a Black Label book. Same goes for other movies in development hell. I'd rather read books like that than current events.

  10. #1390
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    I'm still waiting for Harlan Ellison's unpublished Hawkman story.

  11. #1391
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    Quote Originally Posted by batnbreakfast View Post
    DC should pick an artist and make Ben Affleck's Batman screenplay a Black Label book. Same goes for other movies in development hell. I'd rather read books like that than current events.
    It would solve the Snyder cut controversy.

  12. #1392
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    Fans always complain we always see Lex and Zod in films, but they are fine with more Joker, Catwoman and Penguin...

  13. #1393
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    Fans always complain we always see Lex and Zod in films, but they are fine with more Joker, Catwoman and Penguin...
    Don't know about Penguin or Catwoman, but people complain about Joker overuse as well. In Catwoman's case there's the argument that she isn't always used as a villain.

  14. #1394
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    I'm not into any of the DC Comics tv shows on the CW.

    I watched the first two seasons of Arrow and liked them okay. Then it turned into something else. When I realized that he hadn't been on the island for five years, I lost interest. I've tried two other CW shows, but never got into them so I stopped watching after two or three eps.

  15. #1395
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    I'm not into any of the DC Comics tv shows on the CW.

    I watched the first two seasons of Arrow and liked them okay. Then it turned into something else. When I realized that he hadn't been on the island for five years, I lost interest. I've tried two other CW shows, but never got into them so I stopped watching after two or three eps.
    I quit after the first season. While I thought there were a lot of really good episodes, long-term didn't look good for me. They killed my favorite character. Then I heard we were going to get more of the two characters I didn't like on the island. So I wasn't sure about continuing. I decided if they didn't go the way the channel usually did, I'd keep watching. My litmus-test was three episodes of Ollie and Laurel being together in the next season. Didn't even like them as a ship, but did not want to be on the roller-coaster of they-get-together-for-big-event-then-immediately split. Only did a couple eps of Supergirl, but it wasn't CW then, right? Haven't tried any other CW shows for fear of same shipping issues. I like shipping - but pick one is and stick to is how I feel about it.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 10-15-2019 at 09:14 AM.

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