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  1. #1081
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    And Batman having so vivid a failure gave him an impetus beyond his parents murder.
    More like it was only used as a justification for Bruce to become more closed off and abusive towards Dick and others until Tim showed up.

  2. #1082
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Unlike Bucky Barnes, both Barry Allen and Jason Todd had much more utility as revered corpses than as current characters.
    Jason Todd was never a revered corpse. He was viewed as the screw up that caused his own death or the bad seed that would never turn out well. Very victim-blamed. It was very hammered in that it was Jason's own fault he died, and more than once referenced that he was the failure. I wondered if it was to avoid giving Bruce any blame. Especially after another kid donned the tights - had to say the kid was the problem, so it was okay for another to do it.

  3. #1083
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    I must have given up reading Batman comics by the time that change happened. When I was still reading them, the sense was that Batman blamed himself for Jason's death--and that he had too quickly taken Jay on as a partner, without enough training. He had put a young man in harm's way, for the sake of his personal war on crime. Of course, that itself was a retcon, because the red-haired Jason had proved his worth to Batman and had Dick's backing in becoming the new Robin.

    When I found out that Jason had been brought back to life through some harebrained plot, I was very disappointed in the fandom that assumed the stewardship over the Batman franchise, that I abandoned. This was not the kind of thing that should happen in a Batman comic. The Dark Knight was supposed to have grounded stories, not ridiculous plots that brought characters back from the dead just so a new writer could use a character to create drama. In the old days, fans would have revolted against that kind of twaddle.

    [I'm being a bit hyperbolic for controversial effect, to earn my keep on this thread.]
    celebrating 50 years of 4 beatles crossing a zebra

  4. #1084
    Spectacular Member Fromper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    More like it was only used as a justification for Bruce to become more closed off and abusive towards Dick and others until Tim showed up.
    "until Tim showed up"??? You make it sound like there was a significant time period in the comics between Jason's death and Tim's arrival. It was literally 6 months. Jason died in Batman #429, and Tim was introduced in Batman #436. So the behavior you describe was just setup for Tim's intro story, which they already knew was coming the minute they published Jason's death.
    Just re-reading my old collection, filling in the occasional gap with back issues, not buying anything new.

    Currently working my way through 1990's Flash, Impulse, and JLA, and occasional other related stuff.

  5. #1085
    Astonishing Member j9ac9k's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Jason Todd was never a revered corpse. He was viewed as the screw up that caused his own death or the bad seed that would never turn out well. Very victim-blamed. It was very hammered in that it was Jason's own fault he died, and more than once referenced that he was the failure. I wondered if it was to avoid giving Bruce any blame. Especially after another kid donned the tights - had to say the kid was the problem, so it was okay for another to do it.
    Maybe we didn't read the same stories, but that's not how I saw it. I know that among fandom he wasn't very revered, but I remember Jason's death definitely weighed on Batman as his failure - not Jason's regardless of whether or not Jason was the problem child /possible murderer.

    And on the other Jason topic, if Jason had simply lived through "Death in the Family" but had still be beaten and traumatized by the Joker, the rest of his journey to become the Red Hood still could have turned out pretty much the same, imo.

  6. #1086
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fromper View Post
    "until Tim showed up"??? You make it sound like there was a significant time period in the comics between Jason's death and Tim's arrival. It was literally 6 months. Jason died in Batman #429, and Tim was introduced in Batman #436. So the behavior you describe was just setup for Tim's intro story, which they already knew was coming the minute they published Jason's death.
    Six months is not exactly a short amount of time.

  7. #1087
    Anyone. Anywhere.Anytime. Arsenal's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Maybe we didn't read the same stories, but that's not how I saw it. I know that among fandom he wasn't very revered, but I remember Jason's death definitely weighed on Batman as his failure - not Jason's regardless of whether or not Jason was the problem child /possible murderer.

    And on the other Jason topic, if Jason had simply lived through "Death in the Family" but had still be beaten and traumatized by the Joker, the rest of his journey to become the Red Hood still could have turned out pretty much the same, imo.
    Death in the family without the death is just another bad day at the office where Bruce arrived in the nick of time to prevent it from being a disaster. If Jason doesn’t die and get replaced shortly afterwards, there is no Red Hood.

  8. #1088
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Maybe we didn't read the same stories, but that's not how I saw it. I know that among fandom he wasn't very revered, but I remember Jason's death definitely weighed on Batman as his failure - not Jason's regardless of whether or not Jason was the problem child /possible murderer.

    And on the other Jason topic, if Jason had simply lived through "Death in the Family" but had still be beaten and traumatized by the Joker, the rest of his journey to become the Red Hood still could have turned out pretty much the same, imo.
    Yeah, reading through Death in the Family to where Tim took over it seemed very much like Batman blamed himself for everything, even the idea of having a partner, rather then Jason.

  9. #1089
    Spectacular Member Fromper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Six months is not exactly a short amount of time.
    It's a short enough period of time that Bruce's behavior was part of a longer story thread that led to A Lonely Place of Dying, rather than an ongoing change to the character. It was intentional, and relatively short term.
    Just re-reading my old collection, filling in the occasional gap with back issues, not buying anything new.

    Currently working my way through 1990's Flash, Impulse, and JLA, and occasional other related stuff.

  10. #1090
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fromper View Post
    It's a short enough period of time that Bruce's behavior was part of a longer story thread that led to A Lonely Place of Dying, rather than an ongoing change to the character. It was intentional, and relatively short term.
    That it was part of a story thread is not what I was disputing. And again, six months is not a short time. That's 182 days.

  11. #1091
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    I do not really think there are any boring characters, but some supporting characters might as well just develop a costumed identity at this point.

  12. #1092
    Mighty Member Rise's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I must have given up reading Batman comics by the time that change happened. When I was still reading them, the sense was that Batman blamed himself for Jason's death--and that he had too quickly taken Jay on as a partner, without enough training. He had put a young man in harm's way, for the sake of his personal war on crime. Of course, that itself was a retcon, because the red-haired Jason had proved his worth to Batman and had Dick's backing in becoming the new Robin.

    When I found out that Jason had been brought back to life through some harebrained plot, I was very disappointed in the fandom that assumed the stewardship over the Batman franchise, that I abandoned. This was not the kind of thing that should happen in a Batman comic. The Dark Knight was supposed to have grounded stories, not ridiculous plots that brought characters back from the dead just so a new writer could use a character to create drama. In the old days, fans would have revolted against that kind of twaddle.

    [I'm being a bit hyperbolic for controversial effect, to earn my keep on this thread.]
    Characters have been coming back to life in Batman long before they brought Jason Todd back.

  13. #1093
    Astonishing Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by j9ac9k View Post
    Maybe we didn't read the same stories, but that's not how I saw it. I know that among fandom he wasn't very revered, but I remember Jason's death definitely weighed on Batman as his failure - not Jason's regardless of whether or not Jason was the problem child /possible murderer.

    And on the other Jason topic, if Jason had simply lived through "Death in the Family" but had still be beaten and traumatized by the Joker, the rest of his journey to become the Red Hood still could have turned out pretty much the same, imo.
    At first, yeah. Then came the victim blaming;



    "Jason was too rash and died because of it!"

    https://fuckyeahjasontodd.tumblr.com...blamed-for-his

    In the actual issue, Jason, even after being beaten and betrayed, while left for dead with Sheila, still tried to save the woman that betrayed him. DC changed it to Jason basically deserving to be killed. Turned Jason into a horror story for future Robins and other such members of the Bats.

  14. #1094
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    More like it was only used as a justification for Bruce to become more closed off and abusive towards Dick and others until Tim showed up.
    Well that is how storytelling works.

    Jason's death and Bruce's reaction to it is a moment of actual in-universe effects that wasn't just wiped away or around for a couple writers.
    "It's too bad she won't live! But then again, who does? - Gaff Blade Runner

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  15. #1095
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by byrd156 View Post
    Well that is how storytelling works.

    Jason's death and Bruce's reaction to it is a moment of actual in-universe effects that wasn't just wiped away or around for a couple writers.
    Actually, I'm not sure that's true. It seemed like much of his anger and grief over Jason had passed, and then only popped up again when they decided to bring Tim in, I think (may be misremembering). And Bruce was much better with Dick and not abusive through the earlier 1990s, only to have it pop up again (on steroids) in the late 1990s.

    At first, yeah. Then came the victim blaming;
    Victim-blaming came early from DC. Depressing, with it's quotes from writers and entry from the letters page. It's really heavy during the time Tim joins the team - from other characters.

    Characters have been coming back to life in Batman long before they brought Jason Todd back.
    At least since Alfred (I really can't count Joker's supposed demises). Mind you, Jason Todd coming back didn't mean much to me. I dislike that he was brought back as a villain - as has been discussed before, I think this was done was a result of the vilification of Jason as a bad seed for so many years, when it was a very unfair assessment. I think the Superboy punch was stupid (and am very mildly annoyed at good character gone to paradise being made evil Superboy Prime), and I don't like anti-heroes, so haven't read the recent stuff with him. But I just deeply dislike those who say he was well-regarded and respected in death (he wasn't), or that he was good as a cautionary tale (victim-blaming for a heroic death). I like that his return at least makes people care how shoddily the character was treated in death, even if I never had a particular attachment to him. I just so dislike the unfairness of the judgement laid on him.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 09-03-2019 at 06:02 PM.

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