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  1. #3976
    Mighty Member Primal Slayer's Avatar
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    DC should've just started over again for New52 like they did with COIE and rebuild back up. All these soft reboots are useless.

  2. #3977
    Extraordinary Member HsssH's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
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  3. #3978
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    really? Compared to guys like Lex F-ing Luthor... you see "third smartest" as... weak? lol wut?
    So then you're also saying Lex has superhuman intelligence? And don't forget that in Doomsday Clock, various Watchmen sought out only Bruce and Lex because they were the smartest beings of their world.
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  4. #3979
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    So then you're also saying Lex has superhuman intelligence? And don't forget that in Doomsday Clock, various Watchmen sought out only Bruce and Lex because they were the smartest beings of their world.
    would you consider Lex's intellect to be "normal"? 'cause in-universe... nope. Normal people can't do what he does because they lack the intellect..... much like how normal people can't lift cars or fly....

  5. #3980
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    I've been arguing this for years, that the multiverse is just a ghetto for continuities and characters whoever is in charge at DC at any moment does not want to use. Fans are just too in love with the multiverse to notice that's what DC does with it.
    You're arguing from the position that the way DC treats the multiverse is the only way they can treat it, but that's not the case! Fans know DC treats the multiverse as a ghetto, they just also know that DC... doesn't have to do that??

    Look at something like the current Milestone line. It's got its own setting, it's own rules. And as long as it continues to get the attention from the publisher which it needs to flourish, I won't consider the line ghettoized. In fact being more separate gives it a more distinct identity. Apollo and Midnighter are probably the biggest success of the Wildstorm DCU merge, but the role they used to play as some of the top dog heroes of their world is over and doesn't make sense now that they share the stage with Superman and the Justice League. And they're a success story, because they coexist at all! By contrast, Whatever Happened to Mister Majestic?

    One book, like "The Wild Storm," is not really enough to keep a universe from existing in the Multiverse ghetto, probably. But a small line of books for a universe are feasible- especially if the Main DCU stops being treated as the Default for Everything!

    Quote Originally Posted by Lukmendes View Post
    Whenever I check out those older comics, I can see continuity was simpler to keep up with since "life changing events" were rare, the stories were largely episodic.

    There were plot holes around, like when exactly Supes' background story became separated from Kal-L's, and the harder you look the bigger the plot holes, but ultimately, because it was so episodic, it didn't hurt as much.

    It also helps that back then, despite the superdickery in covers, there were less gimmicks for the sake of cheap drama, status quo wasn't shaked that much.

    So yeah, the way I see it, continuity was easier to handle, but when we got to bronze age and stories were allowed to be developed more, we had editors and writers bothering more often to keep track of what was going on, something we don't have much nowadays, unless the writer is like Ewing who respects continuity to use it well.
    Yeah, that all sounds about right. Ultimately I'm torn between the two apparent solutions of "Keep Track of Everything Better You Nincompoops!" And the alternative "Stop Upending the Entire Status Quo Every Five Minutes, Dummy!"

    But I think DC should start doing one or both of those things.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  6. #3981
    Astonishing Member Lukmendes's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    DC should've just started over again for New52 like they did with COIE and rebuild back up. All these soft reboots are useless.
    Considering both New 52 and the original Crisis were pretty arbitrary to what gets rebooted or not, and just made continuity into massive headaches, I don't think starting over again would help lol.

    But yeah, soft reboots are an even more half assed option.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Yeah, that all sounds about right. Ultimately I'm torn between the two apparent solutions of "Keep Track of Everything Better You Nincompoops!" And the alternative "Stop Upending the Entire Status Quo Every Five Minutes, Dummy!"

    But I think DC should start doing one or both of those things.
    Doing the first one is fucking cancer right now, considering we have the mix of Pre-crisis, post-crisis, New 52 and whatever other retcons like Zero Hour and Infinite Crisis... And now the most recent one Infinite Frontier lol.

    It's already annoying enough to keep track of the continuities if someone actually were to put effort, but too many writers and editors don't bother, which only makes the problem worse, which gives DC more reasons to do another Crisis, which won't solve anything because DC never commits to it, which leads to them bringing back stuff from older continuity... Repeat until super hero comic books go extinct lol.

    As for the second one, that only needs writers or editors who don't try to push for gimmicks to increase sales, 'cause yeah, shaking the status quo can be nice, but that new status quo has to stay around long enough for it to matter, otherwise it's just a weird phase.

  7. #3982
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    You're arguing from the position that the way DC treats the multiverse is the only way they can treat it, but that's not the case! Fans know DC treats the multiverse as a ghetto, they just also know that DC... doesn't have to do that??
    Yes, the mentality that the Multiverse is a ghetto has been cemented largely because fans and writers just expect it to be treated that way because we've had one shared main universe for so long.

    Whereas we can see some examples in other media and in the pre-Crisis comics that it really doesn't have to be a ghetto. The clutter Earth has become such an unwieldy mess that I can't see how anyone can argue that it's easier to follow now than it was pre-1986, and the Golden Agers were even able to sustain a couple of books on Earth-2 back then vs. how they got Ragnaroked or whatever soon after Crisis. They were salvaged to much success by the likes of Johns and Robinson later, but early post-COIE and certainly now they may as well be in the ghetto on the same Earth.

    It's too late now to restore the original Multiverse and commit to it because it would involve throwing away too much stuff to be worth it. But while I wasn't around yet for any of the old comics as they were coming out, just reading some Bronze Age comics is easier to keep track of than a lot of stuff that came after. At least the characters were presented largely as they were (PG, Donna, the Hawks) without TOO many retcons piled onto them yet. Maybe Wonder Woman was the outlier, but she unfortunately is always a mess no matter what.

  8. #3983
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    would you consider Lex's intellect to be "normal"? 'cause in-universe... nope. Normal people can't do what he does because they lack the intellect..... much like how normal people can't lift cars or fly....
    Like Mr. Terrific, nothing in anything ever written about Lex ever suggested he has superhuman intelligence. So I'm honestly not sure why you're singling Batman out in terms of realistic portrayals of human genius.

    I actually do know why you're singling him out, btw. I was just being facetious.
    "Overturn everything! Can't he just write an executive order that says: 'Everything Trump did is now overturned. F**k that guy.' signed, Joe Biden."

  9. #3984
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    I think what made Infinity work (at least for a while) was exploring that whole world of what used to be called Earth-2.
    It was a real earth, with heroes trying to navigate their life before and after various crises.
    Their earth was just as valid, just as real as any other, it was the other places that were the elsewhere.
    But that isn't all that easy to do. Which is why Roy Thomas was a genius.

    I know COIE has its defenders, but it wasn't this great reordering of the universe. It had this
    haphazard quality as it slaughtered off all the various heroes. Issue 12 ought to be remembered in infamy
    for the way heroes were slaughtered (especially the Golden Age Robin and the Helena Wayne Huntress). It created
    more problems than it solved, which has led over time to an undoing of its dramatic structure. Finally, DC has given
    up trying to order its universe with the "it all happened."

    The problem with reboots is that well everything gets redone. Like a tornado where a house is stripped down to just the foundation, where
    you start completely fresh. It just won't work. You can't have a complete reboot but then say well we aren't going back to the Dick
    Grayson Robin or Superman starting off working at the Daily Planet. But then with a soft reboot you are stuck with internal contradictions.
    What is the starting point? What gets rebooted, while what gets left alone?

    Then of course there is the whole Wonder Woman problem. Personally, I think the best would be to just think of it as its own separate world,
    without trying to integrate it into the larger whole. Of course, that won't perfectly work with Justice League, along with Wonder Woman's own interactions
    with the wider DC world.
    Last edited by RobinGA; 12-06-2021 at 12:17 PM.

  10. #3985
    Extraordinary Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Like Mr. Terrific, nothing in anything ever written about Lex ever suggested he has superhuman intelligence. So I'm honestly not sure why you're singling Batman out in terms of realistic portrayals of human genius.

    I actually do know why you're singling him out, btw. I was just being facetious.
    Unh hunh... the smartest guy on the planet.... a character who's actually DEFINED by it.... it creates a weird logical disconnect if one of the greatest geniuses in the fictional setting... is supposedly not "super"-smart... when the setting has actual "super" geniuses?

    Yeah, it's a weird writing thing.... It's more a matter of if a character has "genius" as a defining trait than if they have a defined power of super-human intelligence it seems. Which is head scratching because the non-super people apparently beat the super ones? O-o'

  11. #3986
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Unh hunh... the smartest guy on the planet.... a character who's actually DEFINED by it.... it creates a weird logical disconnect if one of the greatest geniuses in the fictional setting... is supposedly not "super"-smart... when the setting has actual "super" geniuses?

    Yeah, it's a weird writing thing.... It's more a matter of if a character has "genius" as a defining trait than if they have a defined power of super-human intelligence it seems. Which is head scratching because the non-super people apparently beat the super ones? O-o'
    Batman has been defined by his intelligence since at least 1986. Some would say 1966 or even earlier. In fact, his intellect was what DC decided what he had to contribute to the World's Finest team. And like I said earlier, in Doomsday Clock written by Geoff Johns, he was described as one of the two smartest humans of that world. But since you don't like him...

    ...nyahh.

    Gotcha. Know exactly where you're coming from
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  12. #3987
    Extraordinary Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    DC should've just started over again for New52 like they did with COIE and rebuild back up. All these soft reboots are useless.
    I agree but I would also argue New 52 didn't go far enough.
    "I always have time for a citizen of Metropolis."

  13. #3988

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    I think one of the problems with DC's approach to the multiverse is they don't do enough (or anything) to make them worth following. They tend to telegraph them as: "Basically the same characters, slightly remixed." And once whatever novelty the remix offers wears off, then it's just "the other, less important continuity."
    What the multiverse should offer is a viable alternative to the characters.

    As an example...take Spider-Man.
    There are some fans who think he should always be young, relatively inexperienced, in over his head, juggling girlfriends, and regarded by the public as a menace as much as a hero. Meanwhile, for other fans, part of his appeal is that he grew into an experienced hero, became a pillar of the superhero community, has gone on cosmic adventures, and married Mary Jane.

    Ultimate Spider-Man provided a teenage Peter who never left New York alongside the 616 Peter who grew up and joined the Avengers, so readers got the best of both worlds.
    In comparison, Ultimate X-Men just wound up being "another X-Men title" with just as complex continuity as the regular books. Ultimate Fantastic Four ended up "the other FF book, except they're all young."

    That's part of why I think Ultimate Spider-Man outlasted the other Ultimate books and remains fairly well-regarded today. When they try to have it both ways, we end up with an adult Peter who's stuck in arrested development and making deals with Satan to get rid of his marriage.

    Now, in DC, there are characters who could benefit from alternative takes...not to mention certain heroes who would probably be better off if they existed on their own universe just for themselves.

    Some fans believe Batman must eternally remain a loner, an outsider, an outlaw regarded by Gotham as an urban legend. A grounded hero who deals with street-level threats and doesn't interact with gods and aliens.
    But that clashes with the fact Batman has by this point amassed a rather large family of partners, is a founding member of the Justice League, has become one of the in-universe pillars of the superhero community, and is probably trusted more by the people of Gotham than their actual police force or fire department.

    I think the effort to have it both ways is one of the reasons Batman nowadays is written like an unlikable tool. Because how the hell can he be considered a loner when he's practically the McDonalds of superheroes? So they have him act like an asshole to his friends and allies, 'cause that's what loners do, right? They're dickheads?

    An alternate Earth could allow Batman to remain the urban legend of Gotham with one or two sidekicks and Commish Gordon as his sole ally in the police...while keeping the Batman that routinely hangs out with the Justice League and has become the beleaguered dad of a half-dozen Robins, three Batgirls, a Huntress and a partridge in a pear tree.

    Or take Wonder Woman.
    DC, for some reason, seems to want Diana active as a hero since World War II. But, naturally, they want her around in modern day so she can interact with other heroes. The problem is she doesn't have the easy jump from the 40s to modern day that Captain America has, soooooo...what the hell has she been doing for 80 years? How is her supporting cast not dead? Is Diana the same person now that she was then, and if so, how?

    Again, an alternate Earth could allow both. A Wonder Woman who's been around forever, watched her friends and loved ones age and die, been through it all, seen it all, and come out the other side a little world-weary...and also a Wonder Woman who first showed up in modern day and remains wide-eyed and idealistic.

    I'm sure there are some who'd like an Earth where heroes can actually grow old, retire or die, and pass their mantles on. Again, it's an alternative. We can have comics where everyone remains their most iconic selves and are always young, and have been on the job for a perpetual, nebulous 5-10 years for all time...and comics where sons and daughters and sidekicks can inherit their parents/mentors mantles.

    Offer a clear vision of what the multiverse offers and why its worth checking out as opposed to what tends to be glorified fan-fic.
    "An Earth where Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman DIED!" sounds like a good hook. But when the answer winds up being: "Eh, it's pretty much the same...just different characters shuffled around," no one is going to care.
    "Never place your trust in us. We're only human. Inevitably, we will disappoint you."


  14. #3989

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primal Slayer View Post
    DC should've just started over again for New52 like they did with COIE and rebuild back up. All these soft reboots are useless.
    They didn't actually do that after COIE. If they had, there probably would not have been so many problems.
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  15. #3990
    Extraordinary Member John Venus's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Guy_McNichts View Post
    I think one of the problems with DC's approach to the multiverse is they don't do enough (or anything) to make them worth following. They tend to telegraph them as: "Basically the same characters, slightly remixed." And once whatever novelty the remix offers wears off, then it's just "the other, less important continuity."
    What the multiverse should offer is a viable alternative to the characters.

    As an example...take Spider-Man.
    There are some fans who think he should always be young, relatively inexperienced, in over his head, juggling girlfriends, and regarded by the public as a menace as much as a hero. Meanwhile, for other fans, part of his appeal is that he grew into an experienced hero, became a pillar of the superhero community, has gone on cosmic adventures, and married Mary Jane.

    Ultimate Spider-Man provided a teenage Peter who never left New York alongside the 616 Peter who grew up and joined the Avengers, so readers got the best of both worlds.
    In comparison, Ultimate X-Men just wound up being "another X-Men title" with just as complex continuity as the regular books. Ultimate Fantastic Four ended up "the other FF book, except they're all young."

    That's part of why I think Ultimate Spider-Man outlasted the other Ultimate books and remains fairly well-regarded today. When they try to have it both ways, we end up with an adult Peter who's stuck in arrested development and making deals with Satan to get rid of his marriage.

    Now, in DC, there are characters who could benefit from alternative takes...not to mention certain heroes who would probably be better off if they existed on their own universe just for themselves.

    Some fans believe Batman must eternally remain a loner, an outsider, an outlaw regarded by Gotham as an urban legend. A grounded hero who deals with street-level threats and doesn't interact with gods and aliens.
    But that clashes with the fact Batman has by this point amassed a rather large family of partners, is a founding member of the Justice League, has become one of the in-universe pillars of the superhero community, and is probably trusted more by the people of Gotham than their actual police force or fire department.

    I think the effort to have it both ways is one of the reasons Batman nowadays is written like an unlikable tool. Because how the hell can he be considered a loner when he's practically the McDonalds of superheroes? So they have him act like an asshole to his friends and allies, 'cause that's what loners do, right? They're dickheads?

    An alternate Earth could allow Batman to remain the urban legend of Gotham with one or two sidekicks and Commish Gordon as his sole ally in the police...while keeping the Batman that routinely hangs out with the Justice League and has become the beleaguered dad of a half-dozen Robins, three Batgirls, a Huntress and a partridge in a pear tree.

    Or take Wonder Woman.
    DC, for some reason, seems to want Diana active as a hero since World War II. But, naturally, they want her around in modern day so she can interact with other heroes. The problem is she doesn't have the easy jump from the 40s to modern day that Captain America has, soooooo...what the hell has she been doing for 80 years? How is her supporting cast not dead? Is Diana the same person now that she was then, and if so, how?

    Again, an alternate Earth could allow both. A Wonder Woman who's been around forever, watched her friends and loved ones age and die, been through it all, seen it all, and come out the other side a little world-weary...and also a Wonder Woman who first showed up in modern day and remains wide-eyed and idealistic.

    I'm sure there are some who'd like an Earth where heroes can actually grow old, retire or die, and pass their mantles on. Again, it's an alternative. We can have comics where everyone remains their most iconic selves and are always young, and have been on the job for a perpetual, nebulous 5-10 years for all time...and comics where sons and daughters and sidekicks can inherit their parents/mentors mantles.

    Offer a clear vision of what the multiverse offers and why its worth checking out as opposed to what tends to be glorified fan-fic.
    "An Earth where Superman, Batman, and Wonder Woman DIED!" sounds like a good hook. But when the answer winds up being: "Eh, it's pretty much the same...just different characters shuffled around," no one is going to care.
    Yep, when I got into comics I was reading:

    -Main Line Spider-Man where he was dealing with the Norman's return and later joining the Avengers.

    -MC2 where Peter was grown up, middle aged and his daughter was the lead now.

    -Ultimate Spider-Man where Peter was more hip and contemporary and still a High School aged, young inexperienced hero.

    I was able to follow along all of them without any problems. I knew they were all separate universes and alternate timelines.

    The only reason the MCU is able to do 'What If?' now is because they have a concrete continuity so they can explore alternative routes. This is the same reason DC's Elseworlds worked so well in the past. We knew there were accepted fundamentals in the 'main' continuity so EW gave us an opportunity to see stories that would have never happened in the main continuity.

    Diana doesn't need to be a WW2 hero. Her Rebirth origin works fine as a modernization of the character. Establish that Diana is a more contemporary hero then do an Elseworlds with her as a WW2 hero so you can do the concept justice. Otherwise you are not serving either.

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