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  1. #916
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Heroes in Crisis, taking into consideration all of its plot points, is pretty cool; in actuality, it was just fine. It's not the worst thing ever but it should've been a thriller, not a mystery. that is the only real sin it commits.
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  2. #917
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    Are the obvious writing plotholes not a sin now?

  3. #918
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Heroes in Crisis, taking into consideration all of its plot points, is pretty cool; in actuality, it was just fine. It's not the worst thing ever but it should've been a thriller, not a mystery. that is the only real sin it commits.
    Its garbage. The fact you cant see that is frankly weird. Its talk about mental health is insulting, its characters are so out of wack that they come off as OCs, the story twists things to fit it and its an obvious cash grab event with shock ad its main selling point.

  4. #919
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Heroes in Crisis, taking into consideration all of its plot points, is pretty cool; in actuality, it was just fine. It's not the worst thing ever but it should've been a thriller, not a mystery. that is the only real sin it commits.
    I think HiC should've been what it was advertised as being, a book about exploring the heroes' psychological issues and how they cope with it, not turned into a murder mystery that killed a bunch of characters off.

    And, frankly, while I understand something like that hits close to home with King...his sensibilities and issues with characterization just made him the wrong kind of person to write this kind of story.

  5. #920
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Martian Manhunter is not the heart and soul of the Justice League. My favorite era is the 1970s (especially the fist half), and MM was totally absent. I like MM fine, but it's not essential to me that he be there. Same for full trinity. Diana was absent for a good part of the era, and I really liked those stories. I could do the JL with either Batman or Superman being absent, as well. Having one of them is probably good, but I don't like them dominating the League (getting all the best victories or all the story-time).

  6. #921
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think HiC should've been what it was advertised as being, a book about exploring the heroes' psychological issues and how they cope with it, not turned into a murder mystery that killed a bunch of characters off.

    And, frankly, while I understand something like that hits close to home with King...his sensibilities and issues with characterization just made him the wrong kind of person to write this kind of story.
    a thriller approach would've worked better to that end, the deaths are fine but a thriller would've allowed more room to explore why things happened, the mental state of the heroes and how these kind of incidents affect the heroes, instead of twisting the story backwards to blow it up into a big murder mystery. the best way imo would've been to have the massacre happen end of first issue/beginning of second issue and spend the series defusing the situation and dealing with fall out. heroes being killed by one of their own at a secret mental health rehab for heroes? earth's greatest heroes having their vulnerabilities exposed to the world? there is a lot of potential for insight and character exploration there that they missed out on in service of setting up a lackluster and unnecessary mystery.
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  7. #922
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Martian Manhunter is not the heart and soul of the Justice League. My favorite era is the 1970s (especially the fist half), and MM was totally absent. I like MM fine, but it's not essential to me that he be there. Same for full trinity. Diana was absent for a good part of the era, and I really liked those stories. I could do the JL with either Batman or Superman being absent, as well. Having one of them is probably good, but I don't like them dominating the League (getting all the best victories or all the story-time).
    For me I'm just kind of over Cyborg replacing J'onn as a founder.

    I'm not against Cyborg on the League but at this point I don't think his founding status has really done anything for the character, other then force them to ignore or downplay his Titans connection.

    I'm not even sure whether it's canon that he's still a founder at this point.
    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    a thriller approach would've worked better to that end, the deaths are fine but a thriller would've allowed more room to explore why things happened, the mental state of the heroes and how these kind of incidents affect the heroes, instead of twisting the story backwards to blow it up into a big murder mystery. the best way imo would've been to have the massacre happen end of first issue/beginning of second issue and spend the series defusing the situation and dealing with fall out. heroes being killed by one of their own at a secret mental health rehab for heroes? earth's greatest heroes having their vulnerabilities exposed to the world? there is a lot of potential for insight and character exploration there that they missed out on in service of setting up a lackluster and unnecessary mystery.
    Honestly, that sounds like what the story was eventually turned into, the execution just couldn't pull it off.

    I don't think the deaths were fine. Maybe in an Elseworlds setting but they just seemed mean-spirited and unnecessary for what the story should have been about.

  8. #923
    Incredible Member OpaqueGiraffe17's Avatar
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    I like Cyborg and Martian Manhunter just fine.....but NEITHER of them deserve to be founding members of the Justice League. What do Batman, Aquaman, Superman, The Flash, Green Lantern and Wonder Woman have, that J’onn and Victor don’t?
    The other six have their own mythos unique to them, solos that last more than 30 issues before cancellation, their own villains and supporting characters. J’onn is just too derivative of Superman. And Cyborg just isn’t a solo character. He doesn’t have his own mythos outside of the new gods or the Titans.
    Again, I like them just fine. But if it were up to me, the only founding members would be Clark, Bruce, Diana, Hal, Barry and Arthur. But if I absolutely had to pick a 7th member, it would be another woman like Hawkgirl or Vixen.

  9. #924
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    Quote Originally Posted by OpaqueGiraffe17 View Post
    I like Cyborg and Martian Manhunter just fine.....but NEITHER of them deserve to be founding members of the Justice League. What do Batman, Aquaman, Superman, The Flash, Green Lantern and Wonder Woman have, that Jíonn and Victor donít?
    The other six have their own mythos unique to them, solos that last more than 30 issues before cancellation, their own villains and supporting characters. Jíonn is just too derivative of Superman. And Cyborg just isnít a solo character. He doesnít have his own mythos outside of the new gods or the Titans.
    Again, I like them just fine. But if it were up to me, the only founding members would be Clark, Bruce, Diana, Hal, Barry and Arthur. But if I absolutely had to pick a 7th member, it would be another woman like Hawkgirl or Vixen.
    Let.me start by saying I'm not particularly a Martian Manhunter fan. With that done...

    Martian Manhunter had the same thing going for him in 1961 that every single member of The Justice Society had going for them in 1940; they all held down a solo feature in a comic, but weren't big enough to hold a title of their own (i.e. Superman and Batman). What's more, in 1961, MM had more of a track record than anybody at the dinner table on the cover of All-Star Comics #3 did in 1940.

    Honestly, that was the ticket to admission to the (in-universe) Big Leagues back in the day. People forget that The JLA was mainly The Runner-Up 5+Those Big 2 Cameos in it's first few issues more than it was The Magnificent 7.

    Cyborg did not have MM's stature going for him at Flashpoint. He was shoehorned.

    Yes. We needed diversity. But either John Stewart or (better idea by far for a relaunch) Simon Baz could have done that better, and more organically. DC leaned on Cyborg (IMO) because he had more Iron Man-esque Toyetic potential..

  10. #925
    Incredible Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I think Vic loses more (the Titans history) than he gains by being made founder, myself.

  11. #926
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Yes. We needed diversity. But either John Stewart or (better idea by far for a relaunch) Simon Baz could have done that better, and more organically. DC leaned on Cyborg (IMO) because he had more Iron Man-esque Toyetic potential..
    I think there's a number of reasons they decided to "promote" Vic. He's "toyetic" yes (great word) I think that played into it, but he also offers a powerset the League doesn't have (Batman's gadgets notwithstanding), decades of history and a fair amount of larger media appearances, and he's a non-legacy character. John Stewart would've made more sense yes, but he shares the GL mantle with several characters, and Hal casts a big shadow. A lot of other PoC heroes are in a similar situation; they either lack the history and uniqueness to make them appealing as "core League" or they're tied to other (usually white) heroes (like Steel).

    Really, I think if DC was going to pick a black character to put into the League who really offers something unique to the group and can stand as a solo IP, your options are basically Vic, Black Lightning, and Vixen. All of them offer something to the League beyond diversity, all of them have decades as team players, etc. But DC had beef with Isabella and Vixen doesn't have quite as deep a history as Cyborg does. I think now, after Metal and everything, DC has started to see something in Mr. Terrific that goes beyond the Batman-style "tech-based, stoic guy" archetype but back in 2011 he was too close to Bruce in terms of what he offered.

    Vic *could* be a great League member....but DC hasn't given us that yet. And he definitely needs his Titans history back. He doesn't need to be a founder of the League, I actually think he offers more as a Titan who moved up. We need that "90's Wally West/Kyle Rayner" perspective and as a highly experienced hero working on a new team, *the* team, Vic would be a great fit.....if only DC put in some effort.
    Last edited by Ascended; 08-17-2019 at 07:30 PM.
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  12. #927
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think there's a number of reasons they decided to "promote" Vic. He's "toyetic" yes (great word) I think that played into it, but he also offers a powerset the League doesn't have (Batman's gadgets notwithstanding), decades of history and a fair amount of larger media appearances, and he's a non-legacy character. John Stewart would've made more sense yes, but he shares the GL mantle with several characters, and Hal casts a big shadow. A lot of other PoC heroes are in a similar situation; they either lack the history and uniqueness to make them appealing as "core League" or they're tied to other (usually white) heroes (like Steel).

    Really, I think if DC was going to pick a black character to put into the League who really offers something unique to the group and can stand as a solo IP, your options are basically Vic, Black Lightning, and Vixen. All of them offer something to the League beyond diversity, all of them have decades as team players, etc. But DC had beef with Isabella and Vixen doesn't have quite as deep a history as Cyborg does. I think now, after Metal and everything, DC has started to see something in Mr. Terrific that goes beyond the Batman-style "tech-based, stoic guy" archetype but back in 2011 he was too close to Bruce in terms of what he offered.

    Vic *could* be a great League member....but DC hasn't given us that yet. And he definitely needs his Titans history back. He doesn't need to be a founder of the League, I actually think he offers more as a Titan who moved up. We need that "90's Wally West/Kyle Rayner" perspective and as a highly experienced hero working on a new team, *the* team, Vic would be a great fit.....if only DC put in some effort.
    A Green Lantern is already a superhero, needing only a lever. Cyborg requires having pieces of who he is cut away. Not the best empowering story.

  13. #928
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think there's a number of reasons they decided to "promote" Vic. He's "toyetic" yes (great word) I think that played into it, but he also offers a powerset the League doesn't have (Batman's gadgets notwithstanding), decades of history and a fair amount of larger media appearances, and he's a non-legacy character. John Stewart would've made more sense yes, but he shares the GL mantle with several characters, and Hal casts a big shadow. A lot of other PoC heroes are in a similar situation; they either lack the history and uniqueness to make them appealing as "core League" or they're tied to other (usually white) heroes (like Steel).

    Really, I think if DC was going to pick a black character to put into the League who really offers something unique to the group and can stand as a solo IP, your options are basically Vic, Black Lightning, and Vixen. All of them offer something to the League beyond diversity, all of them have decades as team players, etc. But DC had beef with Isabella and Vixen doesn't have quite as deep a history as Cyborg does. I think now, after Metal and everything, DC has started to see something in Mr. Terrific that goes beyond the Batman-style "tech-based, stoic guy" archetype but back in 2011 he was too close to Bruce in terms of what he offered.

    Vic *could* be a great League member....but DC hasn't given us that yet. And he definitely needs his Titans history back. He doesn't need to be a founder of the League, I actually think he offers more as a Titan who moved up. We need that "90's Wally West/Kyle Rayner" perspective and as a highly experienced hero working on a new team, *the* team, Vic would be a great fit.....if only DC put in some effort.
    I think with how things have ultimately turned out, Vixen and Black Lightning would have been much better choices in the long run.

  14. #929
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Don't know if this is unpopular but I liked the designs of the Olympian gods from New 52 Wonder Woman.
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  15. #930
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    Here's a controversial opinion. We shouldn't have to pick between John Stewart and Victor Stone. They are not interchangeable and having two black guys as founders won't bring the world to an end.

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