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  1. #931
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Here's a controversial opinion. We shouldn't have to pick between John Stewart and Victor Stone. They are not interchangeable and having two black guys as founders won't bring the world to an end.
    see now, that's just good old fashion common sense. however, I don't think John needs to be a founder, it would be cool but it would throw the order of Green Lantern recruitment out of whack. to be fair Cyborg technically had to business being promoted up at the time he did besides being a black guy and that did throw things out of whack for him. if we're just talking which characters made the most sense to be the founders to break up the assortment of white people, it would've made the most sense to have Black Lightning and Hawkgirl. Black Lightning is DC's strongest independent black male character, John Stewart is probably their most recognizable Black character overall but he doesn't carry his own brand in the same way Lightning does. they could've built a corner of the DC universe around Black Lightning. Hawkgirl Kendra Saunders is usually latinx plus the reincarnation element affords endless possibilities for positive cultural representation and connections to all parts of the DC landscape like Hawkman has been able to in the past. She could've been DC's Mighty Thor before Marvel thought to give Jane the hammer. Cyborg should've had time to grow into the league and DC's been letting him go to waste since that initial mistake.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 08-17-2019 at 10:02 PM.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Lantern.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Deathstroke, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Doomsday Clock
    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, Ironheart, Cosmic Ghost Rider etc., Venom, Moon Girl, Avengers
    Anticipated titles: Far Sector, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  2. #932
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Here's a controversial opinion. We shouldn't have to pick between John Stewart and Victor Stone. They are not interchangeable and having two black guys as founders won't bring the world to an end.
    It's that one minority at a time syndrome


    As far as founders go I would've went with BL or Vixen if we're going to ignore John and Vic. Then again having all white founders +Jonn doesn't really bother me, it's the current team that counts in my eyes.
    Last edited by 9th.; 08-17-2019 at 10:57 PM.
    Reading list: Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel), Ironheart (Marvel), Champions (Marvel), Jessica Jones: Purple Daughter (Marvel), Runaways (Marvel), Young Justice (DC), Naomi (DC), Justice League Odyssey (DC), My Hero Academia (VIZ), Bitter Root (Image), Quincredible (Lionforge), Buffy the Vampire Slayer Reboot (BOOM!)

  3. #933
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    see now, that's just good old fashion common sense. however, I don't think John needs to be a founder, it would be cool but it would throw the order of Green Lantern recruitment out of whack. to be fair Cyborg technically had to business being promoted up at the time he did besides being a black guy and that did throw things out of whack for him. if we're just talking which characters made the most sense to be the founders to break up the assortment of white people, it would've made the most sense to have Black Lightning and Hawkgirl. Black Lightning is DC's strongest independent black male character, John Stewart is probably their most recognizable Black character overall but he doesn't carry his own brand in the same way Lightning does. they could've built a corner of the DC universe around Black Lightning. Hawkgirl Kendra Saunders is usually latinx plus the reincarnation element affords endless possibilities for positive cultural representation and connections to all parts of the DC landscape like Hawkman has been able to in the past. She could've been DC's Mighty Thor before Marvel thought to give Jane the hammer. Cyborg should've had time to grow into the league and DC's been letting him go to waste since that initial mistake.
    Black Lightning's daughters need to make a comeback as well. Taking them out of the picture is just as bad as DC constantly trying to downplay Cyborg's ties to the Titans.

  4. #934
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Controversial - I really find Dick Grayson to be way, way overhyped and don't really get his fans.

  5. #935
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Here's a controversial opinion. We shouldn't have to pick between John Stewart and Victor Stone. They are not interchangeable and having two black guys as founders won't bring the world to an end.
    Whilst your right, because comics are founded on nostalgia a good chunk of the JLA is stuck in stasis on who should be in it. I personally feel that whilst the morrison run was great sticking permanently to that as as the ideal JLA is damaging. People say the older JLA were lame because they didnt have Superman etc but that allowed them to have tougher threats without the workd being destroyed 9/10 times.

  6. #936
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    A Green Lantern is already a superhero, needing only a lever. Cyborg requires having pieces of who he is cut away. Not the best empowering story.
    Losing pieces of himself is Victor's origin. It isn't his entire story.

  7. #937
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Hawkgirl Kendra Saunders is usually latinx plus the reincarnation element affords endless possibilities for positive cultural representation and connections to all parts of the DC landscape like Hawkman has been able to in the past.
    Kendra as a Founder feels wired to me for two reasons.
    1. It doesn't really makes much sense for me to have her as Founder without Hawkman. He is the main protagonist of the "Hawkfranchise", so it should either be him or both of them together.
    2. She is not the first Hawkgirl, that is Shiera.

    I have not problem of her becoming a member later on without Hawkman on the team, but I don't see how this would make sense that early in continuity that she could be a founder.
    Last edited by Aahz; 08-18-2019 at 02:53 AM.

  8. #938
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    Personally I'd ditch the reincarnation thing for the Hawks and just have Kendra be Shayera's daughter via a human she fell in love with.

  9. #939
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazy Diamond View Post
    DC's magic characters work best when they're being written by someone who actually knows theology (ex. John Ostrander) or the occult (ex. Alan Moore, Grant Morrison, Rachel Pollack, J.M Dematteis). Otherwise they're too powerful and that means they get jobbed out or conveniently written out of the story so it doesn't end in five panels. I couldn't get into Shadowpact because it just felt like every other team superhero book out there but with magic characters in it which was a shame and kind of a waste. In fact, I think a good chunk of the magic DC characters worked better in Vertigo where they could explore themes like that. John Constantine never recovered from being put back in the DCU. It's said seeing him he's so watered down and bland.


    Hal Jordan would work better as an anti-hero with his traits. In the older comics there was this tendency to have him act in questionable ways and the writers would rarely acknowledge it.

    Guy Gardner's current origin is terrible. And now he's bland and nonthreatening too. Him being a Red Lantern was good for him because as a Green Lantern he'd done it all. His story was over.

    If the DC wants to have a multiverse they should try taking advantage of it. I mean why have the Wildstorm charaters be also rans on Earth-Prime when they could be their own imprint again on their own Earth?

    Kon-El was a great character till he was retconned by Geoff Johns. He was never the same after that. It just sucked the life out of his character.

    Grant Morrison did his best work when he wasn't writing superheroes. Maybe the upcoming GL book will prove me wrong but I felt he said all he needed to say with All-Star Superman.
    Most of the YJ cast was better off before Johns.

  10. #940
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    A Green Lantern is already a superhero, needing only a lever. Cyborg requires having pieces of who he is cut away. Not the best empowering story.
    I think Vic's story can be very empowering, in the same way that Barbara Gordon's story as Oracle was empowering. They were crippled but didn't let it ruin or stop them (granted Vic had a long struggle making peace with himself, but he stepped up nonetheless) and they made their situations work for them. I've seen a lot of people talk about how those characters meant a lot and inspired them to keep going after accidents of their own. Just depends on how you look at it......and how DC spins it, too I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think with how things have ultimately turned out, Vixen and Black Lightning would have been much better choices in the long run.
    I don't think the problem was Vic, but the way writers have folded him (or rather, failed to) into the League's dynamic. And I'm not sure if it would have gone any better with Jeff or Vixen. Jeff especially has/had a number of real-world factors in the mix with Isabella (which may be what prevented him from being the new guy in New52) that likely would've caused problems. The problem isn't Vic and never has been, the problem is how DC has handled him in the League. Write him differently, do a better job making him feel like a real Leaguer, and the problem is solved. Gods know we've had far worse heroes on that roster over the years.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Here's a controversial opinion. We shouldn't have to pick between John Stewart and Victor Stone. They are not interchangeable and having two black guys as founders won't bring the world to an end.
    No, we shouldn't have to pick. The fact that this is even an issue at all is pretty shameful. But that's DC.

    Gods I miss McDuffie.

    Although I'm of the mind that a lot less attention needs to be put on who was a founder, and more attention put on the current roster. I don't need Vic to be a founder. Don't need Jeff or John or anyone else who wasn't an actual founder to be retconned in either. What I want is for those characters to be members now, and to get the kind of effort, investment, and attention the other Leaguers get. If Vic or Jeff or Ryan Choi or who the hell ever is written as a important member of the team, that's what matters, not whether they get inserted into a story they weren't there for from decades and decades ago.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

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  11. #941
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    They should just leave the founding seven alone: Clark, Bruce, Diana, Barry, Hal, Arthur and J'onn. Outside of flashback stories, we don't need to keep it strictly to them.
    In present day stories, have the various Earth GLs rotate who is on the JL so we can have John, Jessica or Simon on it. Have Ryan Choi instead of Ray. In an ideal world, Barry would probably be dead and we'd have Wally but Barry still would have been the founding Flash.

    And Vic would be better off as a former Titan who later joined the JL. Stripping him of his Titans history did him absolutely no favors. It's not worth him being there from the beginning, doing nothing important, if he loses all the Titans stuff as a trade off.

  12. #942
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    And Vic would be better off as a former Titan who later joined the JL. Stripping him of his Titans history did him absolutely no favors. It's not worth him being there from the beginning, doing nothing important, if he loses all the Titans stuff as a trade off.
    Damn straight. That Titans history is....I mean, that's his whole character! All his development, relationships, everything, is tied up there. He's got the chutzpah to be a solo act and build his own mythos, but you gotta start somewhere and the Titans provide decades of foundation work to build on.

    Additionally, now that Wally and Kyle are out of the League, we don't have that perspective of the guy who "graduated" to the team. Vic could/should fill that role. Despite being an experienced hero who spent many years fighting demon kings and alien invasions with the Titans, he'd still be able to serve as an audience surrogate for the League.

    I mean, I want Black Lightning and John Stewart (and several other PoC's and women) on the roster, but Vic definitely has something viable to add to the JLA.....if DC could only try a little bit.
    Last edited by Ascended; 08-18-2019 at 08:11 AM.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  13. #943
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Controversial - I really find Dick Grayson to be way, way overhyped and don't really get his fans.
    you have no soul!!

    I dunno about anyone else, but what I really love about Dick Grayson (one of the things anyway) is that he's generally this happy, well-adjusted guy living in the moral and emotional quagmire that is Gotham and the Batcave. That's a weird, interesting dynamic to explore. He's a Bat with the heart and soul of a Super. The best of both worlds, so to speak.
    Higher, Faster, Further....More.

    Truth, Justice, and a Better Tomorrow!

    Bridge Four!

  14. #944
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by vakanai View Post
    controversial - i really find dick grayson to be way, way overhyped and don't really get his fans.
    i. Feel. You.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Lantern.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Deathstroke, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Doomsday Clock
    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, Ironheart, Cosmic Ghost Rider etc., Venom, Moon Girl, Avengers
    Anticipated titles: Far Sector, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  15. #945
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Kendra as a Founder feels wired to me for two reasons.
    1. It doesn't really makes much sense for me to have her as Founder without Hawkman. He is the main protagonist of the "Hawkfranchise", so it should either be him or both of them together.
    2. She is not the first Hawkgirl, that is Shiera.

    I have not problem of her becoming a member later on without Hawkman on the team, but I don't see how this would make sense that early in continuity that she could be a founder.
    Hawkman is the "main protagonist" but that's mainly due to the times they were created in. they were created as a pair, if they were created to day they'd both be treated as the main protagonist, like they have been as time has gone on. Their characters have been "alive" for centuries, there's no real reason either wouldn't be operating when the League was founded and neither logically has a better claim due to "seniority" or anything like that. plus, with reincarnation it really doesn't matter WHICH iteration of the character is introduced because each iteration is narratively ALL of the iterations; that's been the hindrance and the benefit of the Hawks, you can tell all the stories no matter which life. all it takes is one like "in the 1940s I was a woman named Sheira Hall" and the problem of succession is solved.

    If they could skip Shiera on the Justice League and Justice League Unlimited and no one bats an eye when they went to Shayera (voiced by a Latina actress), they can do it again Kendra. Speaking of which, JL/JLU also proved that Hawkgirl doesn't necessarily need to be attached at the hip to Hawkman almost 2 decades ago. So he could appear later down the line like he did in the show and like people, arbitrarily, would've been expected her to. better yet, have Hawkman be revealed to be a member of the Justice Society nd have Hawkgirl be a League founder.

    also, iirc Kendra was also the only Hawkgirl/woman to headline a solo too, which makes her a more believable candidate for founder. If DC was doing Flashpoint it would've made sense to lean in on the Kendra iteration to have representation for more women and doesn't limit cultural and ethnic diversity to "we have some blacks". hell, DC noticed the potential when they kicked off the New 52 when they were trying to make Earth-2, they had her on Legends of Tomorrow, and even now the Hawkgirl we have on the League is Kendra. the Hawkgirl brand is a recognizable brand that's associated with the Justice League, a viable option to build something interesting from and Kendra makes more sense as the focal point as contemporary storytelling culture turns toward more and more toward meaningful inclusion.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 08-18-2019 at 09:40 AM.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Lantern.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Deathstroke, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Doomsday Clock
    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, Ironheart, Cosmic Ghost Rider etc., Venom, Moon Girl, Avengers
    Anticipated titles: Far Sector, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

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