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  1. #3421
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    In BvS, Clark is on the opposite side of Bruce because Bruce is the one acting evil not Clark. That leaves only the JL movie where he is briefly brainwashed. For most of the DCEU, Clark is unambiguously a good if flawed character.
    This is exactly right.

    Bruce is running around branding criminals, knowing it will get them murdered in prison, while the press and the police stand by and let it happen. Clark recognizes the injustice inherent in the Batman's "reign of terror" and tries to stop it. Bruce is Luthor's dupe. Clark is a good man trying his best to do good without doing harm in a complex world.

    One of the issues I think the movie had, is that it presents Bruce as more of the protagonist than Clark, so we see a lot of "The Superman" through his eyes - and he thinks Superman is a monster. Hell, Clark has fewer than fifty lines of dialogue in the theatrical cut! But Clark also has a much more nuanced and complicated story arc, and frankly he needed more screen time than he got, and he needed it more than Bruce did.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  2. #3422
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    This is exactly right.

    Bruce is running around branding criminals, knowing it will get them murdered in prison, while the press and the police stand by and let it happen. Clark recognizes the injustice inherent in the Batman's "reign of terror" and tries to stop it. Bruce is Luthor's dupe. Clark is a good man trying his best to do good without doing harm in a complex world.

    One of the issues I think the movie had, is that it presents Bruce as more of the protagonist than Clark, so we see a lot of "The Superman" through his eyes - and he thinks Superman is a monster. Hell, Clark has fewer than fifty lines of dialogue in the theatrical cut! But Clark also has a much more nuanced and complicated story arc, and frankly he needed more screen time than he got, and he needed it more than Bruce did.
    I agree with you second paragraph. This was one of my main problems with Snyder's Superman. He never gives much dialogue to Superman after MoS. It's frustrating to watch him watch others doubt and badmouth while he says and does nothing about it.

    What would've been good is if Superman went after Batman to try to stop him being so ruthless, confronts him about it and in the end manages to convince Batman to not be so brutal

  3. #3423
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Why is this such an issue for people?
    Character origin stories say a LOT about a character. Having an older hero in your origin well it defines the character.
    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    The solution to the diverse heroes situation is simple. Use them.

    Marvel has shown that an icon isn't the only viable property. They have further shown that an unknown can instantly become iconic through Quality.

    So use the heroes you have and take opportunities to make new ones, whether legacy or original.
    Yeah, there's a lot of characters that have interesting backgrounds and should probably get used more than they do. And yeah DC has shown many times that new characters can become quite popular. If they try to make them good.

  4. #3424
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I agree with you second paragraph. This was one of my main problems with Snyder's Superman. He never gives much dialogue to Superman after MoS. It's frustrating to watch him watch others doubt and badmouth while he says and does nothing about it.

    What would've been good is if Superman went after Batman to try to stop him being so ruthless, confronts him about it and in the end manages to convince Batman to not be so brutal
    But he was saying and doing things about it.

    Debates about the execution aside, that is exactly what happened at the end of the film.

  5. #3425
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Character origin stories say a LOT about a character. Having an older hero in your origin well it defines the character.
    And why's that a problem?

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Yeah, there's a lot of characters that have interesting backgrounds and should probably get used more than they do. And yeah DC has shown many times that new characters can become quite popular. If they try to make them good.
    It's funny to hear thay because a lot of fanboys of more popular characters act like they deserve all the popularity.

  6. #3426
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Why exactly do those characters get low sales?



    Bruce is acting like the bad guy, but Clark is still against him for most of the movie. And then he dies, then is brought back and fights the whole League. Yet when they're not fighting, Clark barely talks to any of the other heroes. In Snyder's plan, we'd see even more of that. It doesn't sound enticing to me.
    The fight with the League is a very small part of the movie and we don't know what the full plans Snyder had were or how much they would have changed.

  7. #3427
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    The fight with the League is a very small part of the movie and we don't know what the full plans Snyder had were or how much they would have changed.
    Yeah we did. Snyder shared his whole plan for the DCEU. Dr Poison killing the amazons, Bruce and Lois having a kid and then Clark raising him after Bruce passes away.

    If anything would've changed it would only be after the backlash to his ideas, not out of his own volition.
    Last edited by Alpha; 07-24-2021 at 03:33 AM.

  8. #3428
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Yeah we did. Snyder shared his whole plan for the DCEU. Psycho killing the amazons, Bruce and Lois having a kid and then Clark raising him after Bruce passes away.

    If anything would've changed it would only be after the backlash to his ideas, not out of his own volition.
    Snyder shared a bunch of ideas that he had for the DCEU. Some would have been integrated some would have been left on the cutting room floor.

  9. #3429
    Astonishing Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Unrelated to the rest of the thread at the moment, but I've said it before and I'll say it again: Despite some clear flaws in getting their points across, both Man of Steel and Batman v. Superman are good movies with good hearts, and they make useful, interesting points about their main characters.

    I wish we could see the Snyder and Terrio team continue their DC epic into future films, even though I don't care for the concept of evil, brainwashed Superman.

    Just felt like saying that at the moment.
    I stand behind this as well, I love MOS and the Ultimate cut of BvS is ok enough.
    Reading List (Super behind but reading them nontheless):
    DC: Green Lantern, Wonder Girl, Far Sector, The Other History of the DC Universe, The Next Batamn, Robin, Nightwing
    Marvel: HiXmen, Miles Morales: Spider-Man, Immortal Hulk, Daredevil
    Image: Killadelphia, Bitter Root, Excellence, Decorum
    IDW: TMNT: The Last Ronin
    Other: Seven Secrets, Jember, Hawi, Watchman, Black Hammer

  10. #3430
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Snyder shared a bunch of ideas that he had for the DCEU. Some would have been integrated some would have been left on the cutting room floor.
    I don't really think most of his ideas were that good, tbh

  11. #3431
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I don't really think most of his ideas were that good, tbh
    This. Zack is a talented visual directory he is much better as a tactical implement. He should never have been made the helm for a brand he not only doesn't really understand but part of it he actually resents.

    After the behind the scenes details were revealed I would say Jim Lee is in the same boat. Use him for visuals supporting a sound vision.

    Hopefully we will leave this mess behind soon.

  12. #3432
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Even if some details of Zack's broad outline didn't end up coming to fruition, the general plot seemed to still be on the table based on what made it into the Snyder Cut and the additional Joker scene he made at the end. It would have been hot garbage either way, it just may have smelled a little different than what we would have gotten originally.

  13. #3433
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    This. Zack is a talented visual directory he is much better as a tactical implement. He should never have been made the helm for a brand he not only doesn't really understand but part of it he actually resents.

    After the behind the scenes details were revealed I would say Jim Lee is in the same boat. Use him for visuals supporting a sound vision.

    Hopefully we will leave this mess behind soon.
    You know, if I had a dollar every time fans accused a creator of resenting a property just because they wrote it in a way they disagreed with, I'd be rich enough to buy DC from WB.

    Snyder does not resent Superman just because he doesn't follow some arbitrary rules on what it means to "get" Superman (some of which were created by people deviating from the character's original concept).

  14. #3434
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You know, if I had a dollar every time fans accused a creator of resenting a property just because they wrote it in a way they disagreed with, I'd be rich enough to buy DC from WB.

    Snyder does not resent Superman just because he doesn't follow some arbitrary rules on what it means to "get" Superman (some of which were created by people deviating from the character's original concept).
    Maybe you would be rich but my post would not contribute to your coffers as I am not writing from the standpoint of disagreement with what he wrote. The resent was detected in an interview where Zack speaks about Superman and that emotion was clear and present.

  15. #3435
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    Maybe you would be rich but my post would not contribute to your coffers as I am not writing from the standpoint of disagreement with what he wrote. The resent was detected in an interview where Zack speaks about Superman and that emotion was clear and present.
    Every interview I've seen of Snyder actually has him speak well of the character as reasonably possible.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-24-2021 at 01:27 PM.

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