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  1. #1156
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Wonder Woman is still recovering and trying to find her footing since Crisis.
    She was having that problem long before crisis.

  2. #1157
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    However, I'm not sure that Wonder Woman was better off before the Crisis. There were many times where she was rebooted and retconned prior to Crisis and all of these efforts came to nought. They have been trying to fix Wonder Woman since the 1950s. DC should have learned from the past and realized that rebooting Wonder Woman yet again isn't going to work out. All they succeed in doing is tying themselves up in knots over the mess they've made. Maybe the solution is not trying to fix her.
    That's fair. I agree, continuing the trend with the post-Crisis reboot wasn't a great, either.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  3. #1158
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phonogram12 View Post
    Wonder Woman is still recovering and trying to find her footing since Crisis.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    She was having that problem long before crisis.
    COIE didn't really help her in the long run though, even if it gave her a much needed boost. Her being in the worse straights of the three pre-COIE definitely means she needed an overhaul the most, but much like Superman, all the worthwhile changes could have been done without rebooting. She gets a power boost and gets full blown flight. A fleshed out cast of named Amazon faces. A new Man's World supporting cast that could have been added to Steve, Etta and Darnell without changing them. She ditches the Diana Prince ID to become an ambassador to her people as the Amazons decide to interact with the outside world more. Revamps for the villains. And best of all, not making Donna a complete dumpster fire of a character.

    It's perhaps not a coincidence that Batman is the best off out of the Trinity, in part because his revamp has aged the best on a craft level and implemented the least amount of radical changes.

  4. #1159
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    It's amazing that the PTB at DC haven't grasped that a hard reboot doesn't benefit characters generally. Twice now Batman has had the most successful track record with reboots (post-Crisis and New52) and both times didn't drastically alter anything. You'd think between that and the way Marvel has addressed "reboots" over the years would have caught on a little bit.

    Though I suspect the upcoming Snyder-Crisis is going to be along those lines. Streamlining and organizing but not rebooting anything wholesale.

  5. #1160
    Mighty Member stargazer01's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    You do need the connection to humanity, but you really need that to tell all superhero stories.

    I think my problem with too much humanity is the general trend to to focus on the Superman and not so much the Superman, making the character just seem like any other generic meta rather than the larger than life cosmic level Sci-Fi Hercules he can be, who does and sees all the craziest, weird shit. The character is at his best when it is a well balanced Superman. The humanity is vital because at his core he's the Champion of the Oppressed and those stories cannot be told without humanity, but he's also the guy who sees and does the larger than life impossible. And really when hes off in space or whatever, the best writers can still tell a very human story.
    .

    For me Superman is a superhero on a cosmic scale not just for planet Earth. You can tell stories with humanity in other planets that are having similar problems (or other kind of problems) like people on Earth. Star Trek has been doing it since the beginning. You can still have drama, heart, action and adventure that many Superman stories have. Superman cares about all life not just humans. He will go to help others if they need it.

  6. #1161
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by stargazer01 View Post
    For me Superman is a superhero on a cosmic scale not just for planet Earth. You can tell stories with humanity in other planets that are having similar problems (or other kind of problems) like people on Earth. Star Trek has been doing it since the beginning. You can still have drama, heart, action and adventure that many Superman stories have. Superman cares about all life not just humans. He will go to help others if they need it.
    But what separates those stories from any other sci-fi superhero story? What would make them great "Superman" stories and not just a great story? I mean, they can and should tell those types of stories with Superman. I enjoy them. And that's not my point. I just have a hard time thinking of one from the past or a scenario that wouldn't work equally as well with a handful of other heroes. The only one that is coming to mind is actually Bendis' present story in Superman with him founding the United Planets. That still has a strong connection to Earth.

    Again, the point isn't that Superman can't tell those stories. It's that advocating a stripping away all the "human" elements - Clark Kent's secret identity, the Daily Planet, Lois, etc. in favor of generic super adventures takes away the heart of the character.

  7. #1162
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    But what separates those stories from any other sci-fi superhero story? What would make them great "Superman" stories and not just a great story? I mean, they can and should tell those types of stories with Superman. I enjoy them. And that's not my point. I just have a hard time thinking of one from the past or a scenario that wouldn't work equally as well with a handful of other heroes. The only one that is coming to mind is actually Bendis' present story in Superman with him founding the United Planets. That still has a strong connection to Earth.

    Again, the point isn't that Superman can't tell those stories. It's that advocating a stripping away all the "human" elements - Clark Kent's secret identity, the Daily Planet, Lois, etc. in favor of generic super adventures takes away the heart of the character.
    What separates them is Superman himself. His empathy and sense of justice. I think both kind of stories can co-exist. I don't need to see Lois or the Daily planet in every single story or the whole story. They can still be a bit part of the story because Superman/Clark can think about them as emotional comfort. He can still remember his father and those special times they shared together even though he could be dead. Lois is still in his heart and mind even if she isn't with him physically.

    Those great Justice League stories and movies in which Lois isn't part of, are still good because we got to see Superman as a hero and his compassion and maybe his leadership.

    I could watch a show about Lois Lane and/or Lex even if Superman doesn't appear. So why not Superman on his own. He is the main lead and draw.

    If it's live action in a movie or TV, I definitely want to see Lois and the Daily Planet to some extent, but in comic books or animation I don't need it all the time.
    Last edited by stargazer01; 09-11-2019 at 10:18 AM.

  8. #1163
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    Again, the point isn't that Superman can't tell those stories. It's that advocating a stripping away all the "human" elements - Clark Kent's secret identity, the Daily Planet, Lois, etc. in favor of generic super adventures takes away the heart of the character.
    Are there many who actually advocating for that though? Most fans who want the cosmic stuff back just want a full Superman mythos and not have it heavily skewed to making him grounded and "human", not doing away with the human elements entirely.

    Superman himself really does distinguish those space faring stories, at least by writers who know what they're doing. He was the first to do most of those types of stories anyway, can he be generic if he's the genre codifier for practically everything?

  9. #1164
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Are there many who actually advocating for that though? Most fans who want the cosmic stuff back just want a full Superman mythos and not have it heavily skewed to making him grounded and "human", not doing away with the human elements entirely.
    I don't know about many, it's difficult to quantify any type of fan, but there is definitely a contingent who see those elements as essentially poisoning the character or holding it back. They see the secret identity, Kansas upbringing, Daily Planet, Lois, etc. as outdated, irrelevant, and limiting.

    Again, I'm not saying every story has to include those elements to be interesting, fun, or entertaining. That is most definitely not true. Just that those elements are at the core of what makes a Superman story a Superman story as opposed to just kinda your standard superhero yarn. And extending that out, stripping those elements away from the mythos or pushing them completely to the background all the time strips the character of too much.

    You could definitely go to far in the other direction too. I don't disagree that a balance is needed. Just that those elements need to part of the mix.

    Superman himself really does distinguish those space faring stories, at least by writers who know what they're doing. He was the first to do most of those types of stories anyway, can he be generic if he's the genre codifier for practically everything?
    I think it's precisely because he was genre codifier that he is at a greater danger of becoming generic. The more unique or identifying elements you strip away the less you have to distinguish him from those that came later because at his core he is the baseline for everything that came after.

  10. #1165
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I don't know about many, it's difficult to quantify any type of fan, but there is definitely a contingent who see those elements as essentially poisoning the character or holding it back. They see the secret identity, Kansas upbringing, Daily Planet, Lois, etc. as outdated, irrelevant, and limiting.

    Again, I'm not saying every story has to include those elements to be interesting, fun, or entertaining. That is most definitely not true. Just that those elements are at the core of what makes a Superman story a Superman story as opposed to just kinda your standard superhero yarn. And extending that out, stripping those elements away from the mythos or pushing them completely to the background all the time strips the character of too much.

    You could definitely go to far in the other direction too. I don't disagree that a balance is needed. Just that those elements need to part of the mix.
    Well the Kansas upbringing that involves the farm he could probably do without. The Kents originally owned a general store, and it would get rid of the obnoxious "Naive Farm Boy" stuff.
    Getting rid of the secret identity from the foundations is a bad idea, but I think exploring a time without it in a continuity (either in the main universe, a cartoon, a movie, etc) could be interesting. It's not really sustainable for him to have it forever if his story progresses naturally.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I think it's precisely because he was genre codifier that he is at a greater danger of becoming generic. The more unique or identifying elements you strip away the less you have to distinguish him from those that came later because at his core he is the baseline for everything that came after.
    But the human settings and interactions are no longer unique on their own either. How does working at the Daily Planet and being married distinguish him from Spider-Man, who works at the Daily Bugle and actually got married first?

  11. #1166
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    COIE didn't really help her in the long run though, even if it gave her a much needed boost. Her being in the worse straights of the three pre-COIE definitely means she needed an overhaul the most, but much like Superman, all the worthwhile changes could have been done without rebooting. She gets a power boost and gets full blown flight. A fleshed out cast of named Amazon faces. A new Man's World supporting cast that could have been added to Steve, Etta and Darnell without changing them. She ditches the Diana Prince ID to become an ambassador to her people as the Amazons decide to interact with the outside world more. Revamps for the villains. And best of all, not making Donna a complete dumpster fire of a character.

    It's perhaps not a coincidence that Batman is the best off out of the Trinity, in part because his revamp has aged the best on a craft level and implemented the least amount of radical changes.
    Quoted for truth.
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  12. #1167
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    I'd actually be okay with someone (not Batman or any of the Bat-Family save Jason) killing The Joker for good just so long as they killed off every other villain who kills innocents off indiscriminately (which, let's face it, is most of them).
    His current approval rating is 34%, meaning 34% of Americans are still morons.

  13. #1168
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Well the Kansas upbringing that involves the farm he could probably do without. The Kents originally owned a general store, and it would get rid of the obnoxious "Naive Farm Boy" stuff.
    Getting rid of the secret identity from the foundations is a bad idea, but I think exploring a time without it in a continuity (either in the main universe, a cartoon, a movie, etc) could be interesting. It's not really sustainable for him to have it forever if his story progresses naturally.
    I'm not saying exploring stories in that direction aren't worthwhile. I think we kinda have an idea as to how they would be received, see Truth, but you can explore anything you want storywise.

    As for progress, yes it's not a sustainable feature. I think Bendis is actually going in that direction with his flash forward visions. But there's little chance of that actually being explored long term. Superman and his supporting cast is not going to age naturally, at least not long term. The cycle will restart eventually.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    But the human settings and interactions are no longer unique on their own either. How does working at the Daily Planet and being married distinguish him from Spider-Man, who works at the Daily Bugle and actually got married first?
    I don't think the marriage is in the same ballpark as the Daily Planet, Lois generally, and the secret identity. It's a story development that has stuck around for a long time, and was a natural progression of things, but narratively it's not as synonymous with Superman as Lois herself is. Personally, sometimes lean towards Smallville Season 11's perpetual engagement as a prefered status quo. But that's another topic entirely.

    I honestly think it comes down to outside media adaptations. Spider-Man's most well known characterizations outside of comics don't incorporate the Daily Bugle to the extent that the Daily Planet has been incorporated with Superman. That's translated into a lessened importance over the years. Nor is it synonymous with Spider-Man or carry the narrative weight the Daily Planet and being a journalist does for Superman. Although I'd argue Mary Jane is now in a Lois tier as a love interest; she is a more traditional love interest though and doesn't carry the narrative weight Lois does.

  14. #1169
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I'm not saying exploring stories in that direction aren't worthwhile. I think we kinda have an idea as to how they would be received, see Truth, but you can explore anything you want storywise.

    As for progress, yes it's not a sustainable feature. I think Bendis is actually going in that direction with his flash forward visions. But there's little chance of that actually being explored long term. Superman and his supporting cast is not going to age naturally, at least not long term. The cycle will restart eventually.
    Well yeah, Superman is bigger than any one version. But it is a natural progression that can be explored.
    If anyone says he should never have a secret identity period in his story, as in from the very beginning, I would disagree with them. But ditching it eventually in an adaptation could work.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I don't think the marriage is in the same ballpark as the Daily Planet, Lois generally, and the secret identity. It's a story development that has stuck around for a long time, and was a natural progression of things, but narratively it's not as synonymous with Superman as Lois herself is. Personally, sometimes lean towards Smallville Season 11's perpetual engagement as a prefered status quo. But that's another topic entirely.
    Agreed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoda View Post
    I honestly think it comes down to outside media adaptations. Spider-Man's most well known characterizations outside of comics don't incorporate the Daily Bugle to the extent that the Daily Planet has been incorporated with Superman. That's translated into a lessened importance over the years. Nor is it synonymous with Spider-Man or carry the narrative weight the Daily Planet and being a journalist does for Superman. Although I'd argue Mary Jane is now in a Lois tier as a love interest; she is a more traditional love interest though and doesn't carry the narrative weight Lois does.
    The Daily Planet stuff being so prevalent in other media that people expect it may actually be a good reason to give it a bit of a rest, or utilize it in a different way. Superman hasn't had a near universally beloved movie since the 80s, and we need to reiterate to the mass audiences that there is more to him than the Kents, Lois, the Daily Planet, Lex and Zod. He really needs a Thor Ragnarok style adventure that he is built for to shake up perceptions while being true to the character to show how versatile he is. I definitely wouldn't advocate for an entire movie series removed from Earth (and I think Lois and Jimmy have gotten up to plenty of weird stuff that there is precedent for them getting involved even in a more cosmic, "out there" adventure), but allowing at least one story to exist as such would be a breath of fresh air for cinematic Superman. Or, if we're doing a more grounded "Champion of the Oppressed" story, look to the Golden Age or early New 52 for inspiration. Just give the guy a shake up instead of relying on the same old elements over and over again.

  15. #1170
    Mighty Member Yoda's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    The Daily Planet stuff being so prevalent in other media that people expect it may actually be a good reason to give it a bit of a rest, or utilize it in a different way. Superman hasn't had a near universally beloved movie since the 80s, and we need to reiterate to the mass audiences that there is more to him than the Kents, Lois, the Daily Planet, Lex and Zod. He really needs a Thor Ragnarok style adventure that he is built for to shake up perceptions while being true to the character to show how versatile he is. I definitely wouldn't advocate for an entire movie series removed from Earth (and I think Lois and Jimmy have gotten up to plenty of weird stuff that there is precedent for them getting involved even in a more cosmic, "out there" adventure), but allowing at least one story to exist as such would be a breath of fresh air for cinematic Superman. Or, if we're doing a more grounded "Champion of the Oppressed" story, look to the Golden Age or early New 52 for inspiration. Just give the guy a shake up instead of relying on the same old elements over and over again.
    Yes and no. I don't know that a Ragnarok style departure is necessary when we don't have any type of foundation in place yet. I don't think sending Cavill of to New Genesis necessarily would cure what ails the movies, though I think the reception of Cavill in Justice League was generally better (outside of the CGI upper lip) than BvS or even Man of Steel. And Man of Steel didn't really incorporate the secret identity or the Daily Planet in the traditional sense until the closing scene. Of all the issues with the DCEU movies, I don't think that was really the problem to be focused on fixing. It actually had a pretty non-traditional take on things and there's nothing of Clark Kent reporter in there. Similarly, most of that stuff was cut out of the theatrical BvS cut.

    I do agree a Golden Age/Morrisson style take on a relaunch would be solid. I've outlined that myself over in the Superman threads on this topic. I also think a take similar to King's Up in the Sky could work as a general framework.

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