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  1. #3451
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    The other gripe with legacies is especially the ones of color is they get USED.

    Aqualad gets a 6 issue mini.
    Shilo Norman gets 6.
    Wonder Girl gets 6.
    Cassandra gets 72 issues.
    Steel gets 52.
    Tim Drake gets 182.

    How many original created POC get that at DC?

    Duke Thomas can only get 3 issues.

    That is the question folks are asking.
    To be fair, they did 3 mini series with Tim before they are confident enough in his popularity to give him a solo.

    By the time his Robin Ongoing ended (and was replace by his Red Robin series) sales were still some where in the high 20K to low 30K range. Steel was only selling half of that when his book ended.

    Why they cut Dukes solo mini short to 3 issues after Synder promoted him in a backup in All Star Batman, is also not really clear to me. And technically he had a 12 issue mini before with We Are Robin.
    Last edited by Aahz; 07-25-2021 at 01:36 AM.

  2. #3452
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Why is this such an issue for people?
    The thing is that for a legacy character there is usually a ceiling (at least if he is part of one of the popular franchises, that is still going at that point).
    Usually the character will never really eclipse the main character of the Franchise.

  3. #3453
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You can't have a Batman story without mentioning the Waynes. You can't do a Superman story without bringing up Krypton. There are Spider-Man fans upset that the MCU has thus far not even mentioned Uncle Ben.

    A legacy character's predecessor isn't baggage. It's just a part of their origin story, same as anyone else.
    Except that it's not a background detail, it's a foreground detail that they interact with in stories. You know... like how every single Robin has Batman in their stories...... somewhere, some of the time, even if it's not regularly.

    To continue the analogy, it's like the difference between how Batman and Dick Grayson's parents get used in Dick Grayson centered stories. His parents come up so often most fans won't even remember their names. I had to look it up(John and Mary)!

    THAT is the difference between passive backstory, and having a mentor in your story.

  4. #3454
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    RECORD SCRATCH

    *Pumps breaks hard, crashes anyway.*

    I have to stop you right there.

    Considering Harley was madly in love with Mistah J and PG is Clark's cousin, I'm gonna pump the breaks there and say she's more akin to Huntress to Batman. Someone who formed her own identity and does her own thing adjacent to the head of the IP.

    They're also besties for bonus points.
    I think my Harley Quinn comparison works fine. I never implied a romance between Power Girl and Superman. My point is that her origin rellies on a top 3 famous hero whom everyone knows, even though she herself is not essential to his stories. Post origin Kara's stories have nothing to do with Clark (from what I've read of her) and she has her own separate name and cast of characters. Once the connection between Harley Quinn and Joker was established, her story in the movies and tv show was totally disengaged from him. He appeared, but he wasn't essential. Same thing is true of Power Girl. You only need to know her origin if you want to, because her stories barely mention Clark.

    She's not a legacy character whatsoever.
    Last edited by Alpha; 07-25-2021 at 01:30 AM.

  5. #3455
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Except that it's not a background detail, it's a foreground detail that they interact with in stories. You know... like how every single Robin has Batman in their stories...... somewhere, some of the time, even if it's not regularly.

    To continue the analogy, it's like the difference between how Batman and Dick Grayson's parents get used in Dick Grayson centered stories. His parents come up so often most fans won't even remember their names. I had to look it up(John and Mary)!

    THAT is the difference between passive backstory, and having a mentor in your story.
    And none of that limits his story. It's perfectly possible to tell a Dick Grayson story and fast forward through the Batman part if you want. You can focus on his life in the circus and then establish that he was adopted and trained by a rich dude. Same way people don't need to focus on what Bruce did after his parents died. In terms of backstory most stories just focus on his life pre murder.

    Most of the legacy heroes we talk about are like Scott Lang and Jamie Reyes. You can tell his story without focusing much on any of his predecessors, or you can dive fully into Ted Kord and Dan Garrett. And the Stargirl show for example has barely explained who Starman was. I don't even remember them explaining the staff's origin.

    I think Wally West is one of the few cases where his story rellies on understanding his predecessor. But Barry can be to a Wally film what Thomas Wayne is to Buce in a Batman film.
    Last edited by Alpha; 07-25-2021 at 01:42 AM.

  6. #3456
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    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    How many original created POC get that at DC?

    Duke Thomas can only get 3 issues.

    That is the question folks are asking.
    Thinking about it, Duke is anyway an odd case.

    From my understanding he was created to be the new Robin after Damian Death, but by the time they were finally going in that direction with him they were allready in the process of bringing Damian back. So that they kind of had to find a new role for Duke, which lead to them constantly changing directions with him to find something that worked.

  7. #3457
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Thinking about it, Duke is anyway an odd case.

    From my understanding he was created to be the new Robin after Damian Death, but by the time they were finally going in that direction with him they were allready in the process of bringing Damian back. So that they kind of had to find a new role for Duke, which lead to them constantly changing directions with him to find something that worked.
    Like I said, these people making these comics very often have difficulty committing to anything and having an actual plan. Sometimes it seems like there's a bunch of chimps back there doing some of this stuff.

    They're like:

    Them: I'm gonna' create this black guy to be Robin XXXXIV.

    Me: Umm...okay. Do we actually need that? I mean, I stopped keeping track of them with Tim Drake.

    Them: No. But I'm just gonna' do it just 'cuz.

    Me: Okay. So, what's going to be the plan for him?

    Them:...

    Them:...

    Them:...Why does there need to be a plan?

    Me. Hmm...

  8. #3458
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Well, Bruce wasn't seeking accountability. He was seeking revenge. Clark was actually the one seeking accountability.
    That's true, but the movie showed much more of Bruce's emotions than Clark's. They should've had similar amounts of dialogue

    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    The thing is that for a legacy character there is usually a ceiling (at least if he is part of one of the popular franchises, that is still going at that point).
    Usually the character will never really eclipse the main character of the Franchise.
    That's because comics refuse to age and retire their older characters

    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    And none of that limits his story. It's perfectly possible to tell a Dick Grayson story and fast forward through the Batman part if you want. You can focus on his life in the circus and then establish that he was adopted and trained by a rich dude. Same way people don't need to focus on what Bruce did after his parents died. In terms of backstory most stories just focus on his life pre murder.

    Most of the legacy heroes we talk about are like Scott Lang and Jamie Reyes. You can tell his story without focusing much on any of his predecessors, or you can dive fully into Ted Kord and Dan Garrett. And the Stargirl show for example has barely explained who Starman was. I don't even remember them explaining the staff's origin.

    I think Wally West is one of the few cases where his story rellies on understanding his predecessor. But Barry can be to a Wally film what Thomas Wayne is to Buce in a Batman film.
    Exactly

  9. #3459
    Extraordinary Member Johnny's Avatar
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    Why would they age or retire them if there's still fan demand for them. If people still want to buy books and merch of those characters, there's no logical reason to get rid of them. And it's not like they haven't tried that before.

  10. #3460
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    That's because comics refuse to age and retire their older characters
    But why should they if those characters are still dominating the sales after 80+ years.

    The sales of the replacements might go up, but would they met the ones of the originals on the long run, or even increase the sales overall?
    And when you start ageing the characters you will have to retire the replacements too eventually.
    And you might make that work one or two times, but once you are on the third or fourth or so incarnation there will be diminishing returns at some point.

    It makes from business perspective just no sense to permanently retire an successful character, to push a less successful one.

  11. #3461
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neo Goblin View Post
    Like I said, these people making these comics very often have difficulty committing to anything and having an actual plan. Sometimes it seems like there's a bunch of chimps back there doing some of this stuff.

    They're like:

    Them: I'm gonna' create this black guy to be Robin XXXXIV.

    Me: Umm...okay. Do we actually need that? I mean, I stopped keeping track of them with Tim Drake.

    Them: No. But I'm just gonna' do it just 'cuz.

    Me: Okay. So, what's going to be the plan for him?

    Them:...

    Them:...

    Them:...Why does there need to be a plan?

    Me. Hmm...
    There are many heads at DCWB and we don't know exactly who's responsible to what until someone says something.

    I heard that DC was moving forward after Damian died and prepared 2 candidates for Robin, Duke and Carrie Kelley. Miller doesn't allow the use of Carrie Kelley outside of his work so she's cancelled, and then WB still wants to use Damian, so they're ordered to bring him back. So Duke's cancelled too.

    Then comes the animated movies focusing on Damian, and his resurrection in comics. His Teen Titans team in Rebirth following the animated movie iteration.

    However once that passed, once the movies are over, Didio arranged Damian to be a villain in 5G. Don't know what his plan for Robin, but I think it's supposed to be Tim. He's given a Robin costume, named Robin in Young Justice through Bendis, and the 5G-turned-Future State story is titled Robin Eternal.

    The plan changed again with Didio fired. Damian's back for the Robin title, but they're still cleaning up after the stories that's supposed to lead up to his villainy in 5G. Tim took a while to show up I think because they need to adjust again what they want to do with him.

  12. #3462
    Spectacular Member Micael's Avatar
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    Final Crisis is not nearly as confusing as people make it out to be. It just requires more attentive reading.

  13. #3463
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    Quote Originally Posted by Restingvoice View Post
    I heard that DC was moving forward after Damian died and prepared 2 candidates for Robin, Duke and Carrie Kelley.
    That's btw. actually not the first time something like that happened.

    Back when Jason died Allan Grant created Anarky in TEC with the intention of making him the next Robin, while Wolfman created Tim Drake in the main Batman series.

  14. #3464
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    Quote Originally Posted by Micael View Post
    Final Crisis is not nearly as confusing as people make it out to be. It just requires more attentive reading.
    I didn't find it all that confusing. That said, I still don't think it's a good story.

  15. #3465
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Power Girl isn't a legacy character. She is to Superman what Harley Quinn is to Joker. And although there are other Power Girls, none have anything to do with Kara herself.
    RECORD SCRATCH

    *Pumps breaks hard, crashes anyway.*

    I have to stop you right there.

    Considering Harley was madly in love with Mistah J and PG is Clark's cousin, I'm gonna pump the breaks there and say she's more akin to Huntress to Batman. Someone who formed her own identity and does her own thing adjacent to the head of the IP.

    They're also besties for bonus points.
    I think my Harley Quinn comparison works fine. I never implied a romance between Power Girl and Superman. My point is that her origin rellies on a top 3 famous hero whom everyone knows, even though she herself is not essential to his stories. Post origin Kara's stories have nothing to do with Clark (from what I've read of her) and she has her own separate name and cast of characters. Once the connection between Harley Quinn and Joker was established, her story in the movies and tv show was totally disengaged from him. He appeared, but he wasn't essential. Same thing is true of Power Girl. You only need to know her origin if you want to, because her stories barely mention Clark.

    She's not a legacy character whatsoever.
    Yeah, it really doesn't. I can buy your argument that PG might not fit the definition of a legacy the way that someone like Stargirl or Robin do. But your contention that Power Girl
    ...is to Superman what Harley Quinn is to Joker...
    is off the rails. I can see an argument that both broke loose from the shadow of an iconic figure, but Power Girl was created as breaking loose, while Harley Quinn was created as an incidental henchwoman, with the breaking loose thing getting bolted on way later in her existence. And that's before we even get around to the difference between overprotective mentoring versus abusive and icky exploitation.

    Power Girl was intended as an expression of feminist empower for her time. Candidly, some trying to pass that torch onto Harley does not speak of a healthy view of feminism.

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