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  1. #3481
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    As a rule, the more words it takes to describe, the weaker the brand (including characters).
    But why? Maybe it's something I'm not getting, but does that mean every character has to be as simplistic as possible?

  2. #3482
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    As a rule, the more words it takes to describe, the weaker the brand (including characters).
    this is something Stan Lee talked about in "Who wants to be a Superhero?". Having multiple books written about a character is GREAT! But you need to find a way to condense it into one-liners for marketing. To add to that, it needs to sounds cool while being accurate(if drastically incomplete).

    Sooo how to summarize the origin of Powergirl in one sentence? Enquiring minds want to know!

    No seriously, please try to do so if you think you can.

  3. #3483
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    While I admittedly find DC confusing in general, I went cross-eyed when I read that Power Girl is similar to Harley Quinn.

    Um, how?
    Someone claimed that Power Girl was a legacy character of Superman. I said that Power Girl is as much of a legacy as Harley Quinn. Both their origins rely upon one of the top heroes/ villains, but they have unique brands and their surrounding cast have nothing to do with both in teambooks and in solos.

    Now can we move on from this subject?

  4. #3484
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    But why? Maybe it's something I'm not getting, but does that mean every character has to be as simplistic as possible?
    Long, convoluted backstories leaning on complex interactions between events and characters are fine for hardcore fans. But, it erodes the power of the character to connect with a broader readership. If a writer wants to speak to a small group, that kind of depth is great. If they want to connect with a group that maybe recognizes a character, but isn't steeped in all the lore, that gets to be a lot tougher.

    In Power Girl's case, it was pretty simple Pre-Crisis, back when when she lived on E2: She was Superman's cousin, the other last child of Krypton, doing things her own way. Once you started having to inject traveling from another universe that doesn't exist anymore - maybe - and being like the cousin of the Superman in this world - but not exactly... a lot of folks give up at that point. It's the same reason that The Hawks and Donna Troy are such a mess.

  5. #3485
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    ... a lot of folks give up at that point. It's the same reason that The Hawks and Donna Troy are such a mess.
    Haha, Donna Troy was a mess right from inception. The writers should just embrace that. It makes her more interesting.

    My first exposure to the Hawks was the Justice League tv show and I thought it made total sense. Alien cops crashland on earth in ancient egypt, become princes, have a tragic death and reincarnate over the millenia. Then I started hearing about how the comics were far mors confusing and I don't get why not stick with this origin.

  6. #3486
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Haha, Donna Troy was a mess right from inception. The writers should just embrace that. It makes her more interesting.
    I have to disagree with it making her more interesting. Yeah she was a mess from jump street, but they settled her into an effective and streamlined origin with the pre-Crisis Bronze Age. It was never a perfect solution, but it was the closest she got. She was a very enjoyable character in NTT where she was Diana's younger adopted sister and was the only Wonder Girl, and worked extremely well as a balancing presence among the NTT cast (particularly as the Team Mom and middle ground between the extremes of Kory and Raven). But when the foundation was removed and they piled on more and more stuff...she got lost in the shuffle and became a walking headache instead of a character.

    She's kind of a weird case of being a straightforward/simple character with a lot of convoluted shit piled onto her. She's not really interesting/complex enough as a character or an icon to make untangling the mess worth it, so I can kind of see why a lot of fans and writers want to avoid her as a lost cause. Which sucks because again she was great for what she was pre-Crisis and should never have had to deal with all the subsequent garbage.

  7. #3487
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Haha, Donna Troy was a mess right from inception. The writers should just embrace that. It makes her more interesting.
    I have to disagree with it making her more interesting. Yeah she was a mess from jump street, but they settled her into an effective and streamlined origin with the pre-Crisis Bronze Age. It was never a perfect solution, but it was the closest she got. She was a very enjoyable character in NTT where she was Diana's younger adopted sister and was the only Wonder Girl, and worked extremely well as a balancing presence among the NTT cast (particularly as the Team Mom and middle ground between the extremes of Kory and Raven). But when the foundation was removed and they piled on more and more stuff...she got lost in the shuffle and became a walking headache instead of a character.

    She's kind of a weird case of being a straightforward/simple character with a lot of convoluted shit piled onto her. She's not really interesting/complex enough as a character or an icon to make untangling the mess worth it, so I can kind of see why a lot of fans and writers want to avoid her as a lost cause. Which sucks because again she was great for what she was pre-Crisis and should never have had to deal with all the subsequent garbage.
    Alpha's got a point. Donna was great from the time Wolfman and Perez got hold of her, up until the Post-Crisis mess. Before the launch of the first Teen Titans ongoing, who (or what) exactly Wonder Girl was had every ounce of the mi********inducing potential of her more recent incarnations. They pretty much just ignored all that starting in 1966, and nobody tried clearing it up until "Who Is Donna Troy."
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    My first exposure to the Hawks was the Justice League tv show and I thought it made total sense. Alien cops crashland on earth in ancient egypt, become princes, have a tragic death and reincarnate over the millenia. Then I started hearing about how the comics were far mors confusing and I don't get why not stick with this origin.
    I agree, I just didn't much like the way Hawkman got handled in the Timm-verse. I do kind of like the approach the Timm-toon took toward reincarnation being a function of the absorbascom imposing memories on others, and wish they'd done something like it in comics canon (as much as DC has canon anymore).

    ETA: when did CBR's bot decide that "m-i-g-r-a-i-n-e inducing" is an offensive term?

  8. #3488
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Long, convoluted backstories leaning on complex interactions between events and characters are fine for hardcore fans. But, it erodes the power of the character to connect with a broader readership. If a writer wants to speak to a small group, that kind of depth is great. If they want to connect with a group that maybe recognizes a character, but isn't steeped in all the lore, that gets to be a lot tougher.

    In Power Girl's case, it was pretty simple Pre-Crisis, back when when she lived on E2: She was Superman's cousin, the other last child of Krypton, doing things her own way. Once you started having to inject traveling from another universe that doesn't exist anymore - maybe - and being like the cousin of the Superman in this world - but not exactly... a lot of folks give up at that point. It's the same reason that The Hawks and Donna Troy are such a mess.
    I guess so. But isn't that all part of the appeal of comics. I agree stuff being too convoluted is problematic, but is everyone having the same basic level of origin that interesting?

  9. #3489
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I guess so. But isn't that all part of the appeal of comics. I agree stuff being too convoluted is problematic, but is everyone having the same basic level of origin that interesting?
    I think a lot of appeal of comics is a lot of lore and an expansive universe that can lead to all sorts of stories starring all sorts of characters interacting with each other in cool ways. At least as far as superhero comics are concerned (and there's a lot more than just them).

    But the characters need to have simple to understand roots/origins. When their very origins are called into question or become convoluted or keep changing it becomes annoying real quick. Only diehard comic fans really have the patience to put up with that, and they arguably shouldn't. It even ends up pissing us off at points and driving us away. Everyone else will go read manga or indy stuff, or stand alone evergreen sellers published by DC and Marvel that don't require encyclopedic knowledge to enjoy. I don't think anyone can really say Donna Troy, Power Girl or the Hawks have benefited from their original origins being messed with with a straight face. Even bigger characters like Superman and Wonder Woman get hurt by that stuff. Some of Superman's stuff that is outside of the main continuity or on the very fringes of it tend to appeal to a wider audience and win Eisners whereas the main continuity stuff generally doesn't.

  10. #3490
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think a lot of appeal of comics is a lot of lore and an expansive universe that can lead to all sorts of stories starring all sorts of characters interacting with each other in cool ways. At least as far as superhero comics are concerned (and there's a lot more than just them).

    But the characters need to have simple to understand roots/origins. When their very origins are called into question or become convoluted or keep changing it becomes annoying real quick. Only diehard comic fans really have the patience to put up with that, and they arguably shouldn't. It even ends up pissing us off at points and driving us away. Everyone else will go read manga or indy stuff, or stand alone evergreen sellers published by DC and Marvel that don't require encyclopedic knowledge to enjoy. I don't think anyone can really say Donna Troy, Power Girl or the Hawks have benefited from their original origins being messed with with a straight face. Even bigger characters like Superman and Wonder Woman get hurt by that stuff. Some of Superman's stuff that is outside of the main continuity or on the very fringes of it tend to appeal to a wider audience and win Eisners whereas the main continuity stuff generally doesn't.
    Exactly. The last point at which Batman didn't have a ridiculous load of lore was probably prior to 1942, but you can still explain who he is in one sentence with only a couple of commas.

  11. #3491
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Exactly. The last point at which Batman didn't have a ridiculous load of lore was probably prior to 1942, but you can still explain who he is in one sentence with only a couple of commas.
    Yep. You can do still do that with Superman too even if he's had more convoluted crap piled onto him, and Wonder Woman to a lesser extent.

    But when you get to Power Girl and we can no longer just say "Earth-2 counterpart to Kara Zor-El is what she is and always has been" it gets murkier.

  12. #3492
    Extraordinary Member Restingvoice's Avatar
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    Power Girl is grown up Supergirl from alternate dimension is a simple enough explanation for me.

  13. #3493
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    I actually think the best one sentence description for Power Girl is “Sassy Kryptonian business woman” of most of her stories, and “Dimension-hopping sassy Kryptonian business woman.”
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  14. #3494
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Haha, Donna Troy was a mess right from inception. The writers should just embrace that. It makes her more interesting.
    Exactly. That is why I loved Byrne's Dark Angel reveal. It embraces, celebrates, and ironically un-complicates that ball of yarn.

    That was a stroke of genius (not so much for his clumsy attempt to revise the origin of the Gods)
    Last edited by Stanlos; 07-28-2021 at 11:54 AM.

  15. #3495
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    I haven't read the rest of the Byrne run, but I quite liked that origin story. What I don't like though is the design of Dark Angel nor the name.

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