Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Kon93]

It's puzzling to me that Flash can be the fastest superhero, and Batman can be the best Detective/Tactician, but Superman being the strongest guy, without having to share that title with anyone, is a problem.

And what these other posters are forgetting conveniently is that the flash and batman are not just 1 trick ponies either. Flash can do just about anything and batman is batgod

[Dred]

And what these other posters are forgetting conveniently is that the flash and batman are not just 1 trick ponies either. Flash can do just about anything and batman is batgod

Anyone can do anything given enough narrative flexing. The point was about generalizations and absolutes.

[king81992]

And what these other posters are forgetting conveniently is that the flash and batman are not just 1 trick ponies either. Flash can do just about anything and batman is batgod

I'm not sure what has been more damaging to Batman: the batgod concept or the Batman is a broken hero who can't save anyone and makes everything worse.

[Kon93]

Anyone can do anything given enough narrative flexing. The point was about generalizations and absolutes.

Generalized superman is the top brick and flash is the fastest, but we both know they both do a whole lot more than that.

Didn't Barry just get another new power in the last few comics?

[Dred]

Generalized superman is the top brick and flash is the fastest, but we both know they both do a whole lot more than that.

Didn't Barry just get another new power in the last few comics?

Everyone's always getting and losing powers. Outside of the core ones they don't change a whole lot, though. And "Brick" isn't a super power. Fast is! Brick is a generic description of a chunk of super powers.

The point is that Superman shouldn't necessarily be stronger than someone whose core, and pretty much only, super power is being the strongest. For the same reason he is not the fastest or smartest. It's the ol Jack of All Trades situation, only Superman's actually a master of all trades and only ever comes up just barely short to other characters in hyper specialized roles.

[Kon93]

Everyone's always getting and losing powers. Outside of the core ones they don't change a whole lot, though. And "Brick" isn't a super power. Fast is! Brick is a generic description of a chunk of super powers.

The point is that Superman shouldn't necessarily be stronger than someone whose core, and pretty much only, super power is being the strongest. For the same reason he is not the fastest or smartest. It's the ol Jack of All Trades situation, only Superman's actually a master of all trades and only ever comes up just barely short to other characters in hyper specialized roles.

So you brush off Barry learning a new power to make your point come on man.

I didn't say power, I said Generalized, as in what they are known for, not what specific power they have, another swurve to keep your point.

I have no problem with Damage being as or even a very slim margin stronger than superman, flash being a slim margin faster than superman. What I have a problem with his ppl saying the flash has 1 power, which is BS, he has had many and for a long time now, so be honest about it.

And Jack of all trades isn't the thing I think superman should stand on, because other characters like Martian manhunter and kon/Conner Kent have more powers than he has, but neither or in his power level imo.

[Dred]

So you brush off Barry learning a new power to make your point come on man.

I didn't say power, I said Generalized, as in what they are known for, not what specific power they have, another swurve to keep your point.

I have no problem with Damage being as or even a very slim margin stronger than superman, flash being a slim margin faster than superman. What I have a problem with his ppl saying the flash has 1 power, which is BS, he has had many and for a long time now, so be honest about it.

And Jack of all trades isn't the thing I think superman should stand on, because other characters like Martian manhunter and kon/Conner Kent have more powers than he has, but neither or in his power level imo.

Yes, I'm brushing it off. Just like I'd brush off the fact that, one time, Wally West made a solid construct out of pure vibrations because it's never come up again. Random ass new powers happen all the time. Superman is the character most guilty of this in their history. I brushed it off because it is irrelevant. The same way I'd waive off Superman having electricity powers because he was temporarily Superman Blue.

Flash has 1 core power that then branches off into a bunch of subpowers. Flash's power used to just be super speed, which had some kitschy applications where he derived new techniques out of it (often based on nebulous physics, like phasing and time travel) or necessities of having the super power (resistance to friction so he can actually run at super speeds). Since then, Flash's power has become defined as "Speed Force access," which in Wally's case gives him the free manipulation of momentum one way or another (though he rarely uses this, it pops up enough to not be waived away as an irrelevant, brief stint) but in Barry's case...it's all just the same stuff he had back in the day. Super Speed and powers that can be nebulously explained with super speed (phasing being quantum tunneling, for instance!).

Superman's powers aren't just derivations or different ways to use one power. His flight is a distinct and separate power from his strength. He doesn't use his strength to fly faster in space. You could say that strength and invulnerability are inherently tied, though that doesn't explain his resistances to other things that strength would have no impact on (cold and heat, energy beams, etc). Heat Vision isn't a derived power. Superman isn't creatively using one power in different ways. Superman just has a bunch of absurd, distinct powers.

I don't know why you bring up Martian Manhunter. When push comes to shove, despite the lip service they give about J'onn being Superman's equal in stats, Superman ALWAYS outshines J'onn with the powers they share. J'onn has to make his mark with telepathy, phasing, and shapeshifting because he's always shown as worse or irrelevant compared to Superman when it comes to speed, strength, toughness, or just plain having a more prevalent weakness. J'onn also doesn't have MORE powers than Superman. Even if you talk about powers they only frequently use J'onn has 3 powers Supes doesn't (shapeshifting, Telepathy, phasing) compared to Superman's cold breath, x-ray vision, and super hearing. When you get into rarer powers Superman beats everyone.

[Kon93]

Yes, I'm brushing it off. Just like I'd brush off the fact that, one time, Wally West made a solid construct out of pure vibrations because it's never come up again. Random ass new powers happen all the time. Superman is the character most guilty of this in their history. I brushed it off because it is irrelevant. The same way I'd waive off Superman having electricity powers because he was temporarily Superman Blue.

Flash has 1 core power that then branches off into a bunch of subpowers. Flash's power used to just be super speed, which had some kitschy applications where he derived new techniques out of it (often based on nebulous physics, like phasing and time travel) or necessities of having the super power (resistance to friction so he can actually run at super speeds). Since then, Flash's power has become defined as "Speed Force access," which in Wally's case gives him the free manipulation of momentum one way or another (though he rarely uses this, it pops up enough to not be waived away as an irrelevant, brief stint) but in Barry's case...it's all just the same stuff he had back in the day. Super Speed and powers that can be nebulously explained with super speed (phasing being quantum tunneling, for instance!).

Superman's powers aren't just derivations or different ways to use one power. His flight is a distinct and separate power from his strength. He doesn't use his strength to fly faster in space. You could say that strength and invulnerability are inherently tied, though that doesn't explain his resistances to other things that strength would have no impact on (cold and heat, energy beams, etc). Heat Vision isn't a derived power. Superman isn't creatively using one power in different ways. Superman just has a bunch of absurd, distinct powers.

I don't know why you bring up Martian Manhunter. When push comes to shove, despite the lip service they give about J'onn being Superman's equal in stats, Superman ALWAYS outshines J'onn with the powers they share. J'onn has to make his mark with telepathy, phasing, and shapeshifting because he's always shown as worse or irrelevant compared to Superman when it comes to speed, strength, toughness, or just plain having a more prevalent weakness. J'onn also doesn't have MORE powers than Superman. Even if you talk about powers they only frequently use J'onn has 3 powers Supes doesn't (shapeshifting, Telepathy, phasing) compared to Superman's cold breath, x-ray vision, and super hearing.

Superman in the modern Era has not gained any power that he still doesn't have. Superman blue was a totally seperate powerset, it was a added power, so I don't know why you brought it up. Superman has got a solar flare, that he still has, that's the one power he has added and kept, so your point about what they did in the silver age has absolutely nothing to do with now.

Barry gained a power, you don't know if he is gonna use it in every issue from this point on or not, your just wanting to act like it will disappear because it fits your narrative.

Your next 2 paragraphs pretty much say " well he gets his power from one place,and anything he can do drives from that one thing". Well the same could be said for superman. Either by saying he gets his powers from the sun,just like the spped force is a flashes power source, and all his powers come from it, so another point is moot.

You brought up Jack of all trades, and there is no hero more fitting of that title than jonn. Yeah he is not in supermans league physically, but he is MORE of a jack of all trades than superman he is still top tier.

[Dred]

Superman in the modern Era has not gained any power that he still doesn't have. Superman blue was a totally seperate powerset, it was a added power, so I don't know why you brought it up. Superman has got a solar flare, that he still has, that's the one power he has added and kept, so your point about what they did in the silver age has absolutely nothing to do with now.

Barry gained a power, you don't know if he is gonna use it in every issue from this point on or not, your just wanting to act like it will disappear because it fits your narrative.

Your next 2 paragraphs pretty much say " well he gets his power from one place,and anything he can do drives from that one thing". Well the same could be said for superman. Either by saying he gets his powers from the sun,just like the spped force is a flashes power source, and all his powers come from it, so another point is moot.

You brought up Jack of all trades, and there is no hero more fitting of that title than jonn. Yeah he is not in supermans league physically, but he is MORE of a jack of all trades than superman he is still top tier.

Yeah man, and you don't know if it's going to be ignored like the vast majority of one off powers anyone gets. That's why it's not worth bringing up.

That is not what I said. You completely ignored every single bit of what I said. The Sun doesn't give people super powers. Superman's superpowers come from his biology, but they're all distinct super powers that do not rely on each other. The vast majority of Flash's powers are just extensions or clever uses of Super Speed. The how is different between eras, not the why. The vast majority of Flash's powers were all originally explained by "He uses his super speed to..." and then you add the power. Superman's x-ray vision is not a clever use of his heat vision. His flight is not a clever use of his strength. His invulnerability is not a clever use of his super intelligence.

You brought up J'onn in an argument about how Superman doesn't get his due on being the strongest. When J'onn is the character Superman most frequently outshines in super strength despite it both being in their powersets.

J'onn isn't a jack of all trades. He is easily the best shapeshifter and telepath in DC's hero roster. He's just similar to superman in that he's the best at those things and also has all the flying brick powers. He's worse because his weakness is super prevalent and easy to get access to and Superman's way better at everything else. Superman's also the best at heat vision, cold breath, x ray vision, super hearing, and I'd imagine flying though that doesn't come up much in a way you can compare. You just ALSO want him to be definitively the best at strength and toughness, which he is most of the time anyhow and only rarely gets shown up.

[Kon93]

Yeah man, and you don't know if it's going to be ignored like the vast majority of one off powers anyone gets. That's why it's not worth bringing up.

That is not what I said. You completely ignored every single bit of what I said. The Sun doesn't give people super powers. Superman's superpowers come from his biology, but they're all distinct super powers that do not rely on each other. The vast majority of Flash's powers are just extensions or clever uses of Super Speed. The how is different between eras, not the why. The vast majority of Flash's powers were all originally explained by "He uses his super speed to..." and then you add the power. Superman's x-ray vision is not a clever use of his heat vision. His flight is not a clever use of his strength. His invulnerability is not a clever use of his super intelligence.

You brought up J'onn in an argument about how Superman doesn't get his due on being the strongest. When J'onn is the character Superman most frequently outshines in super strength despite it both being in their powersets.

J'onn isn't a jack of all trades. He is easily the best shapeshifter and telepath in DC's hero roster. He's just similar to superman in that he's the best at those things and also has all the flying brick powers. He's worse because his weakness is super prevalent and easy to get access to and Superman's way better at everything else. Superman's also the best at heat vision, cold breath, x ray vision, super hearing, and I'd imagine flying though that doesn't come up much in a way you can compare. You just ALSO want him to be definitively the best at strength and toughness, which he is most of the time anyhow and only rarely gets shown up.

Giving characters passes because they all come from the same source is a cop out, and why characters get power creeps while others get complaijed about for having to many powers.

If you add up all wally west's(one of my favorite characters) powers, or to you would be called applications of the same power, he has as many as the guys being called overpowered or having to many powers.

Tactile telekinesis and GL rings are considered 1 origin for powers, but we classify strength, flight,shields,etc as all separate powers, same for speedforce related abilities.

Only reason I brought up jonn is that he does everything superman can do, and more,he is a Swiss army knife of heroes. Doesnt matter that he is less powerful than superman, just that he can do more, cause he has more powers than him.

[Dred]

Giving characters passes because they all come from the same source is a cop out, and why characters get power creeps while others get complaijed about for having to many powers.

If you add up all wally west's(one of my favorite characters) powers, or to you would be called applications of the same power, he has as many as the guys being called overpowered or having to many powers.

Tactile telekinesis and GL rings are considered 1 origin for powers, but we classify strength, flight,shields,etc as all separate powers, same for speedforce related abilities.

Only reason I brought up jonn is that he does everything superman can do, and more,he is a Swiss army knife of heroes. Doesnt matter that he is less powerful than superman, just that he can do more, cause he has more powers than him.

Yes, the way Wally uses his powers, due to Waid and Morrison's time with the character, has him operate on a functionally different powerset I already mentioned -- the control and manipulation of momentum. One power, still, but even that doesn't explain some of his weirder ones (making clothes out of Speed Force, for instance). That said, he still pales in comparison to Superman on sheer number of powers. Ostensibly, Barry has the same power set but hasn't really expanded on that since returning. He's just generic Flash powers, primarily superspeed (with phasing tacked on, because it also gets explained as "moving each individual molecule and blah blah" which is molecular manipulation and definitely not super speed).

And yes, different applications of the same power are different applications. I'd agree with you on GL! GL's have a unifying source of power (Rings) like Superman does (Biology). GLs certainly have the most different powers because the effectively have wish granting rings given how much we've seen. Constructs, flight, invulnerability, energy manipulation, all sorts of super senses, super speed. None of it is a different application of the same power (like how Flash's super speed allows him to make a tornado), just different powers. It has been said before that the only limitation on what a GL can do is their imagination and will power, which means infinitely many powers if it was necessary. They're (and their writers) just aren't always that creative. GA's powerset is basically functionally defined as what people joke about what Silver Age Superman did.

J'onn can't do more than Superman. J'onn can do different things, but certainly not more.

[Agent Z]

Superman is and should be the ultimate tank. Tank that is connected to everything through his supersenses.

I think kon/Conner Kent should be even moreso this than superman, with his control over his bio aura, but should be frozen age wise to 18 to 21.

Cyborg is not the only Cyborg around, but he should be the best. Hell hank henshaw has been shown to be insanely powerful just by using his Cyborg side.vic should "Atleast" be every bit hanks equal cybernetics to cybernetics, minus the superman side. He should be the ultimate mix of cybernetic offensive/defensive adaptation and pure total linked in, as much as any movie we see where the artifical intelligence has total knowledge and control over everything.

Wonder woman should be as strong as Hercules, which means she should be in supermans strength class, but not his durability, speed, flight, energy, and senses level at all. She is a Amazon for a reason,the movie did a good job of this.

Limited series or series that are set up as volumes should be on "real time", and the continuous comics every Wednesday should be moving through time, but not getting anywhere, as in having Christmas specials but not for 2018 or 2019 specific.

I'm happy that we are getting so many comic adaptions, even though many are not my cup of tea.

The Amazons in the myths didn't have super strength. There's no reason for Diana to be limited to only super strength just because she's an Amazon and she's more powerful than Hercules any way.

People conveniently forget that for all the jobbing Superman gets, far more characters have been jobbed than him on a far more consistent basis. Shazam and Martian Manhunter immediately come to mind.

[Kon93]

Yes, the way Wally uses his powers, due to Waid and Morrison's time with the character, has him operate on a functionally different powerset I already mentioned -- the control and manipulation of momentum. One power, still, but even that doesn't explain some of his weirder ones (making clothes out of Speed Force, for instance). That said, he still pales in comparison to Superman on sheer number of powers. Ostensibly, Barry has the same power set but hasn't really expanded on that since returning. He's just generic Flash powers, primarily superspeed (with phasing tacked on, because it also gets explained as "moving each individual molecule and blah blah" which is molecular manipulation and definitely not super speed).

And yes, different applications of the same power are different applications. I'd agree with you on GL! GL's have a unifying source of power (Rings) like Superman does (Biology). GLs certainly have the most different powers because the effectively have wish granting rings given how much we've seen. Constructs, flight, invulnerability, energy manipulation, all sorts of super senses, super speed. None of it is a different application of the same power (like how Flash's super speed allows him to make a tornado), just different powers. It has been said before that the only limitation on what a GL can do is their imagination and will power, which means infinitely many powers if it was necessary. They're (and their writers) just aren't always that creative. GA's powerset is basically functionally defined as what people joke about what Silver Age Superman did.

J'onn can't do more than Superman. J'onn can do different things, but certainly not more.

Jonn can do more things than superman, just not at supermans level when it comes to the powers thet have in common.

[Kon93]

The Amazons in the myths didn't have super strength. There's no reason for Diana to be limited to only super strength just because she's an Amazon and she's more powerful than Hercules any way.

People conveniently forget that for all the jobbing Superman gets, far more characters have been jobbed than him on a far more consistent basis. Shazam and Martian Manhunter immediately come to mind.

Diana doesn't get her strength from being a Amazon anymore, she gets it from being Zeuss daughter, same for Hercules. Imo Diana is Hercules if a girl and also a Amazon warrior.

Jonn doesn't job when it comes to his unique abilities, just his superman like powers, and it's because they are weaker.

Shazam is a beast, but also a kid, and kids are not as skilled as adults.

[Agent Z]

Diana doesn't get her strength from being a Amazon anymore, she gets it from being Zeuss daughter, same for Hercules. Imo Diana is Hercules if a girl and also a Amazon warrior.

Jonn doesn't job when it comes to his unique abilities, just his superman like powers, and it's because they are weaker.

Shazam is a beast, but also a kid, and kids are not as skilled as adults.

You were the one who brought up her being an Amazon as a reason for your view of her strength level. If she's written as girl Hercules they are doing it wrong.

J'onn's unique powers get jobbed all the time. Remember when he tried to re-writer Joker's brain and failed?

That is most certainly not the case in the DCU. We've seen kids portrayed as being far more skilled than adults. Billy's age shouldn't age shouldn't be a factor is a competition between him and Clark.