Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[The True Detective]

The issue is if you're going to naturally age out Bruce then Dick is the next in line. The problem is we're starting super late because of clutched pearls but this is just reframing the problem with a strawman. If you think progression should happen then it's better to start sooner than later. The next jump after Dick (who could have a much shorter, realistic reign that's NOT 80 years like Bruce) would be Tim, a child of the 90s (who could reasonably be in his late 20s right now along with most the readers who followed him in his heyday!), or even Damian, an 00s character. We're not that far off after Dick so this argument is silly. The second generation was just that for so damn long that the progression catches up VERY fast. Characters like Bart and Iris and Cassie and Lian are easily waiting in the wings.

It only gets worse the longer you wait. Unless your plan is DC dies with Bruce in the cowl and we never try. Which is a perfectly fine opinion to have and is what WILL happen. It's just not terribly imaginative.

Cool, next let's kill off Donald Duck and replace him with Huey, Dewey and Louie. Replace Bond with a new MI6 agent, kill Homer, age up Bart and focus the next 30 years of Simpsons episodes on him. I don't get why Bruce has to be out of the picture for Dick and the others to prosper. Why can't Dick be Nightwing with Bruce as Batman in a comparable situation it's not like Harley Quinn is suffering with Joker being alive.

[Dred]

Cool, next let's kill off Donald Duck and replace him with Huey, Dewey and Louie. Replace Bond with a new MI6 agent, kill Homer, age up Bart and focus the next 30 years of Simpsons episodes on him. I don't get why Bruce has to be out of the picture for Dick and the others to prosper. Why can't Dick be Nightwing with Bruce as Batman in a comparable situation it's not like Harley Quinn is suffering with Joker being alive.

They replace Bond all the time. That's kind of the point. He's a different actor played differently in different situations and everyone has their own favorite Bond. James Bond is Batman, the actors and new stories are the characters who don the title.

If your model for DC is to be more like the Simpsons then you've already lost me.

If you can't see how comics, narratively driven, character based story telling, are different from funny cartoons then I'm not sure why we're even talking.

Bruce and co. have to be out of the picture because Dick and co. can never be important to the universe at large while the "iconic" characters are there. Stuff like No Justice and Metal happens and every character not in Snyder's version of the JL is offscreen'd like idiots because they don't matter. You can't escape an omnipresent shadow. There's only so many comics DC can (and should!) produce. Page space is a limited resource. Batman is a big deal. The title is a big deal. It is important to keep the title. It's like your surname -- just because your parents had it first doesn't mean you don't inherit it!

Like I said, by your logic, Wally should've never become The Flash -- you can't just keep Barry around, rename Wally to Mr. Zip, and expect to get the same return. He'd just be in the same place he has been since he came back -- spinning his wheels pointlessly while Barry matters and does important things. Heck, by your logic, Barry should've never become The Flash. Hal Jordan should've never become Green Lantern. Dick should still be Robin. If progression is anathema then we live in the 40s.

[The True Detective]

They replace Bond all the time. That's kind of the point. He's a different actor played differently in different situations and everyone has their own favorite Bond. James Bond is Batman, the actors and new stories are the characters who don the title.

If your model for DC is to be more like the Simpsons then you've already lost me.

If you can't see how comics, narratively driven, character based story telling, are different from funny cartoons then I'm not sure why we're even talking.

Bruce and co. have to be out of the picture because Dick and co. can never be important to the universe at large while the "iconic" characters are there. Stuff like No Justice and Metal happens and every character not in Snyder's version of the JL is offscreen'd like idiots because they don't matter. You can't escape an omnipresent shadow. There's only so many comics DC can (and should!) produce. Page space is a limited resource. Batman is a big deal. The title is a big deal. It is important to keep the title. It's like your surname -- just because your parents had it first doesn't mean you don't inherit it!

Like I said, by your logic, Wally should've never become The Flash -- you can't just keep Barry around, rename Wally to Mr. Zip, and expect to get the same return. He'd just be in the same place he has been since he came back -- spinning his wheels pointlessly while Barry matters and does important things. Heck, by your logic, Barry should've never become The Flash. Hal Jordan should've never become Green Lantern. Dick should still be Robin. If progression is anathema then we live in the 40s.

OK so if Bruce is killed off for good would his villains be too? If we're going to shake the franchise up the likes of Joker, Riddler and Penguin are gonna need to get offed as well. After all most of his villains have been around for nearly as long as he has so if you want new "fresh" stories the infamous Batman Rogues are going to have to go too. Dick and the others would need newly created villains to fight.

You bring up the original GL and Flash when Alan Scott isn't and never was a member of the GL Corp like Hal is and neither he nor Barry existed when their predecessors debuted. It's not like Hal and Barry were introduced as sidekicks or supporting characters to Alan and Jay so these aren't comparable situations imo. Harley and Joker which is comparable imo both coexist so it can be done. Harley has her own comics, is getting her own cartoon and movies all while the character she was created to be a sidekick to still lives. And she didn't have to steal his Joker moniker and persona or have him die to do it.

[Dred]

OK so if Bruce is killed off for good would his villains be too? If we're going to shake the franchise up the likes of Joker, Riddler and Penguin are gonna need to get offed as well. After all most of his villains have been around for nearly as long as he has so if you want new "fresh" stories the infamous Batman Rogues are going to have to go too. Dick and the others would need newly created villains to fight.

You bring up the original GL and Flash when Alan Scott isn't and never was a member of the GL Corp like Hal is and neither he nor Barry existed when their predecessors debuted. It's not like Hal and Barry were introduced as sidekicks or supporting characters to Alan and Jay so these aren't comparable situations imo. Harley and Joker which is comparable imo both coexist so it can be done. Harley has her own comics, is getting her own cartoon and movies all while the character she was created to be a sidekick to still lives. And she didn't have to steal his Joker moniker and persona or have him die to do it.

Names and titles can be important! Some things can live, some things can move on. Wally reused some of Barry's villains and had a lot more of his own. But, eventually, it would be nice for some change there too, don't you think? It would certainly put to bed the ever present inanity of these horrible, monstrous beings not just getting shot in the back of the head the second they enter a police car because that is definitely what would happen. But it never does because, go figure, The Joker is too important.

Barry and Hal would not exist if Jay and Alan didn't take a backseat. That's the truth of it. Why they took a backseat is the same reason Barry and Hal took a backseat, eventually -- declining popularity. They just wrote Barry and Hal's decline into the narrative because they knew comics would go on. That was not an assurance when Jay and Alan passed the torch. The situations were mildly different but the results and environment were mirrored. It's very comparable for the point of the previous generation needing to step back for the next to prosper.

Harley is a (relatively) new character with a lot of popularity and success. But Joker is a villain. There is no Joker comic to inherit. There is not a Justice League starring The Joker. You don't stand in the shadow, trying to live up to the moniker and deeds of The Joker because Harley didn't start getting comics until she was written as a wacky anti hero completely divorced from Joker. She's not trying to be the clown prince of crime, she's trying to be the wacky, sexy looking joke anti villain.

We don't want these characters to be divorced from their predecessors. We want them to succeed them. Harley spat in the face of that but that is not how most heroes would function. Disdain for their mentors isn't the best transition. Lest we get Azrael again. Harley's a better example of the rare new character striking it out big. But that's not really about progressing the universe and it doesn't have a lot to do with the conversation about older heroes stepping down to let newer heroes into the limelight. Maybe if there was a Harley Quin sidekick now that she's a hero.

Harley also does have the big, big advantage of being a bat character. Fucking Signal got a miniseries. I couldn't get a Flash spinoff comic despite Flash sales being the second best of the core heroes and Wally West literally sitting there, begging for one with historical proof of sales success. Harley always has a tie into Gotham for them sweet spinoff bucks. Half of DC's main universe catalog can be described as "Batman and friends" or "Batman spinoff" because Batman is what they care about. Donna Troy certainly ain't getting a comic no matter how successful Wonder Woman is. Wonder Woman's success will just be used to promote only Wonder Woman some more.

But this still kind of all avoids my point. Instead of deflecting it and calling it slightly different, should we never have had Wally West's run? Should Dick have never become Nightwing because it ages Bruce? Should the entire DC universe revolve specifically only around the 60s iteration of the DC universe forever?

[Frontier]

Names and titles can be important! Some things can live, some things can move on. Wally reused some of Barry's villains and had a lot more of his own. But, eventually, it would be nice for some change there too, don't you think? It would certainly put to bed the ever present inanity of these horrible, monstrous beings not just getting shot in the back of the head the second they enter a police car because that is definitely what would happen. But it never does because, go figure, The Joker is too important.

I wish more people would've just capitalized on the fact that Wally had his own Rogues instead of just giving them to Barry.

Like, Wally has his own city, supporting cast, and unique villains. It really shouldn't be difficult to have him in his own standalone Flash series without encroaching on what Barry is doing if DC editorial would acknowledge that and let Wally do his own thing in a solo book instead of relegating him to Titans or the one Flash writer who wants to use him.

[SiegePerilous02]

You realize the reason Wally was good wasn't because he was a "deliberate" addition to the cast during the 60s, right? Everything that made Wally amazing was good writing and good, new character beats that the previous generation did not have. These are the same things ANY new hero brings to the table in the hands of a good writer. You give them a less established character in a new role and let them loose. I know we've been primarily arguing Donna but this applies for anyone. And I know these characters aren't spring chickens, but you'd have to start SOMEWHERE.

Him being a Silver Age character who had been around a long time certainly played a part (please note that I did not say the only part) in it. They didn't just create a random character out of thin air, they passed the mantle to someone who has been with Barry since the beginning and was a major part of his supporting cast. Who represented the Flash mythos in their most prolific team book. He got great writing, but some of it carried over from Pre-Crisis. Again there are lots of factors that worked out for Wally. It does NOT apply to everyone. There is no one way to guarantee success for characters, or else the natural selection of the industry wouldn't leave a lot of them in limbo, even when the company puts some effort into things.

They don't have to start the trend. Around COIE was the optimal time to do it. Since the previous generation continued on and made more money and the Titans gradually became more and more of a poor man's X-Men, it makes no sense to start the trend later. Especially now when there is a superhero craze and the older characters clearly have no trouble getting new fans when they are executed the right way. Dick's generation can do it too, but they don't need to get rid of previous characters to do it. Arguing so is kind of a backhanded compliment. If they cannot succeed on their own, what good are they?

And here's the issue. The characters you're saying protect and push at all costs until the industry dies? They're crippling and ruining characters around them. Literally, from Didio's mouth, he said the reason Dick and Wally keep getting fucked over, reverted, rebooted, what have you is entirely because characters like Batman can't age and can't progress. The entire DC universe is held ransom by the fact that editorial gets squeamish at the idea of Bruce's age ticking over into the 40s. Every single character who has the GALL to grow, and age, and progress as a person the way any real person does eventually gets knocked back to square one because of this toxic idea that the universe revolves around Bruce Wayne and straying from his godly light is the way to death and doom.

No the correct solution would be to get better creative minds who can think outside the box and find ways to get all generations to work if there is a market there. And to stop making new generations when they have no intention of aging out the previous ones. Just create new heroes and properties that can fall into the same age range as the generations already present.

Shoving out Bruce's generation is not going to save the industry from dying. Kids not giving a **** about comics and/or not knowing where to find them is the issue. Not when they can get more satisfaction from watching the movies or the cartoons/video games.

You're right! Batman is by far the most financially successful DC hero. There's no arguing that and I'm guessing that will be the case until there aren't enough comic stores and online sales around to support the industry, and DC just makes some online trash junk to maintain Warner's copyrights. That inevitability is coming soon and we'll have an entire backlog of characters who never even got a chance because Bruce Wayne -- not Batman, JUST Bruce Wayne -- can't take a step back for any significant period of time. Despite the fact that the one time he did for a character who could legitimately carry the mantle it...worked great? Go figure.

Dick's time as Batman worked great because Morrison was in charge and it was incredibly transparent that it wouldn't be permanent. and the brand is so big due to Bruce's success that it can experiment more.

Bruce Wayne needs to take a step back, but other characters in his generation need the push just as much as the next generations down, and they can give the pushes to all of them. it's ridiculous to think that they can't just because some people in charge do not want to.

Wally is not an exceptional character -- at least, his situation was not exceptional. His stories are great but they're not wholly unique only to him in a way other legacy characters can't replicate. Wally's quality has actually been reproduced elsewhere, just to less notoriety because his franchise isn't as well known -- Jack Knight and Starman. Jack Knight is everything Wally is in quality and execution from the same vantage point of a successor to the title. These characters are amazing, and they are birthed out of a situation that Bruce and Diana and Clark literally cannot have. Their status as the OG crowd prevents them from being involved in an entire dimension of stories. They can not struggle under the weight of a superior predecessor, they can not be the unwanting hero forced into a position of need and authority, they can not tackle the same problems of the past in a way their predecessor couldn't. They are who they are and that limits the stories you can tell, because you can never tell any stories in their world through the perspective of someone else. These stories don't even get a chance! They don't have to be permanent -- though if they're good enough it very well could be! Wally's run should've been permanent. Jack Knight's is! But we rolled back Wally's entire history because Barry's is from Bruce's generation and it's important he's around so Bruce doesn't look too old. The Flash Franchise couldn't keep moving on ahead of the rest of the "important" characters so characters like Wally, characters like Dick, characters like Connor and Cassie and, one day, characters like Damian and Jon will suffer under the weight of stagnancy and the abused idea of "iconic."

At that point, if you keep passing down mantles, law of diminishing returns sets in. You are so far removed from the original concept and character it misses the point. It's repackaging instead of coming up with new ideas and new properties, which is the bigger shame that the market has difficulty with such things.

I love Batman. I'd love Dick Bats, but after that, the sequels are never going to be as good as the original. Same with Hollywood only doing remakes or sequels. Lets gets some fresh ideas.

This isn't just about Donna though, given half a second, I beat you I could pitch an amazing Donna idea that beats out well over half the WW runs we've gotten this past decade PURELY on the value of Donna as a Wonder Woman who is not Diana.

Go to the WW board and say that. Please pitch a story idea that is going to excite more than just the 5 people out there that seriously want Donna to replace Diana.

Why does a push for Donna need to come about with moving Diana away from Wonder Woman? Isn't passing the mantle down just the same old stuff? We know how these things go. No matter how popular Donna ends up being, Diana is inevitably going to come back. If Barry did, Diana sure as hell would. Then we'd get more tedious fandom wars over who was the better Wonder Woman. Let's please just avoid that altogether.

Instead we're forever stuck with the 1960s country club until the industry dies, never even giving these characters a CHANCE!

Maybe I should use the argument everyone tells me when I complain about Wally West -- just go read the back issues. There's thousands of Bruce Wayne comics, Diana Prince comics, Clark Kent comics, Satellite JLA comics already, why don't you go read some back issues while some new characters get some shine, eh?

They can give them chances without throwing away the characters that still work for them and clearly have no problem getting newer fans. Same with Marvel. Stop assuming everyone else is as sick of these characters as you are.

It only gets worse the longer you wait. Unless your plan is DC dies with Bruce in the cowl and we never try. Which is a perfectly fine opinion to have and is what WILL happen. It's just not terribly imaginative.

Neither is swapping out the people behind the masks. Making Dick Batman, Donna Wonder Woman, Garth Aquaman, Roy Green Arrow, and so on would be boring AF. It worked out with Wally, but applying it to all franchises? Too homogenous and just highlights that writers and fans can't think outside the box with what they want done with these characters.

Agent 37 was great for Dick. We need more stuff like that for that whole generation. And fans need to be receptive of it and not turn their noses up at it, and then act surprised with DC falls back into old habits.

I wish more people would've just capitalized on the fact that Wally had his own Rogues instead of just giving them to Barry.

Like, Wally has his own city, supporting cast, and unique villains. It really shouldn't be difficult to have him in his own standalone Flash series without encroaching on what Barry is doing if DC editorial would acknowledge that and let Wally do his own thing in a solo book instead of relegating him to Titans or the one Flash writer who wants to use him.

We got a taste of that in the annual with Magenta. Putting Wally in Keystone and having him face the likes of Blacksmith, Girder, Murmur, Plunder, Fallout, etc. at a bare minimum is a solid foundation.

[Dred]

I can't believe you're saying my ideas are too homogeneous when your idea is literally keep things the same forever. Amazing. The hypocritical gall is outstanding.

Stop making new generations! No more Young Justice, everyone. The 1960s is the end all be all, let's die there. White as a lily and 50 years of standing in place.

Wally West and Jack Knight don't count, and Dick only worked because he was definitely not gonna stick and definitely not because it could just be a good idea. We should just keep it to those three and never try it with anyone else despite the astounding success rate and all time great comic runs we got out of it. Nope. Just outliers.

[SiegePerilous02]

I can't believe you're saying my ideas are too homogeneous when your idea is literally keep things the same forever. Amazing. The hypocritical gall is outstanding.

As is yours, you'r just swapping out the 60s for what worked in the 2000s. And telling people their favorites should pass on instead of doing what DC should be doing (and failing to do): find directions for every character, or respectively leave them aside until they do.

Stop making new generations! No more Young Justice, everyone. The 1960s is the end all be all, let's die there. White as a lily and 50 years of standing in place.

Nonsensical strawman argument. The DC of today does not resemble what it did in the 1960s. It is not lily white. It needs more diversity, but we don't have to phase out generations to do it. Come up with *gasp* NEW characters that are not repeats of old favorites and let them stand on their own.

If the older generations are clearly not going anywhere, the logical solution would be to NOT make more and come up with better ideas for the ones they have instead of crowding things up. Make up new heroes in the age groups you already have.

Wally West and Jack Knight don't count, and Dick only worked because he was definitely not gonna stick and definitely not because it could just be a good idea. We should just keep it to those three and never try it with anyone else despite the astounding success rate and all time great comic runs we got out of it. Nope. Just outliers.

Every success in comics happened by accident. It is next to impossible to capture lightning in a bottle twice. Just because Wally, Jack and Dick worked does not mean it will work across the board. And there isn't a demand for the old characters to be replaced, particularly Bruce and Diana. If you were in charge of DC, it'd be irresponsible to phase them out just because when the market is telling you otherwise.

You seem to be the one convinced there is only one way to get success for the next generation.

[Dred]

As is yours, you'r just swapping out the 60s for what worked in the 2000s. And telling people their favorites should pass on instead of doing what DC should be doing (and failing to do): find directions for every character, or respectively leave them aside until they do.



Nonsensical strawman argument. The DC of today does not resemble what it did in the 1960s. It is not lily white. It needs more diversity, but we don't have to phase out generations to do it. Come up with *gasp* NEW characters that are not repeats of old favorites and let them stand on their own.

If the older generations are clearly not going anywhere, the logical solution would be to NOT make more and come up with better ideas for the ones they have instead of crowding things up. Make up new heroes in the age groups you already have.



Every success in comics happened by accident. It is next to impossible to capture lightning in a bottle twice. Just because Wally, Jack and Dick worked does not mean it will work across the board. And there isn't a demand for the old characters to be replaced, particularly Bruce and Diana. If you were in charge of DC, it'd be irresponsible to phase them out just because when the market is telling you otherwise.

You seem to be the one convinced there is only one way to get success for the next generation.

The people running DC decided that the best choice was to reboot the universe back to square one, and when they need another sales bump they'll do it again. And we'll have the 6 white people 1 token minority JL frontlining it again. All of their big comics that they push are frontlined by characters made in a time when white was right. This isn't a strawman, it's literally part of my opinion. I can't have a strawman about my own opinion. You're the one who just doesn't want to broach the subject of the core of DC being forever stuck in a time period of homogeneity.

So yeah, the older generations not going anywhere? That's kind of the problem! That creates this situation.

Capturing lightning in a bottle twice, no thrice, no four times, five. It works so often but is used so little. It has a higher success rate than making new characters. There was no demand for any of these things that worked. If you're only playing by demand then never make any new comics or characters because no one's demanding those, either. THAT is a strawman.

I'm convinced that it'd make for better storytelling and a richer universe. I'm also of the opinion that it's worth a shot because it's not like DC's been financially stable the past decade of sticking to your point of view.

Like seriously, Wally, Jack and Dick worked. Why not try elsewhere? What is so crazy about that?

I'm not talking about the next generation. I'm talking about EVERY generation besides the 1960s. I'm talking about a world and universe that breathes and moves and progresses instead of retells Batman's guilt for the billionth time or retcons what blew up Krypton for the literal 8th time. We have been repeating the same stories with the same characters for decades and it has been a precipitous decline. My point isn't just that the Titans generation should take over and that'd solve everything. Like any status quo change, some of it would stick, some of it would fail, but more importantly it would open the gates for characters of the future. We have complicit statements that you literally aren't allowed to age characters and grow them because Batman can't be old. Growth is the literal most important thing in character writing yet it's anathema to the Batman/Trinity prerogative. Hooray, how boring.

[BohemiaDrinker]

Here's is my controversial opinion for the day:

The young Justice cartoon does the comics universe much, much better than the comics.

Almost everything that makes DC "DC" is there, while the comics have become a soulless editorially mandated empty shell.

[Dred]

Here's is my controversial opinion for the day:

The young Justice cartoon does the comics universe much, much better than the comics.

Almost everything that makes DC "DC" is there, while the comics have become a soulless editorially mandated empty shell.

Agreed. It's like the proof positive of my point of growing and aging characters and progressing to new ones. With a millionth the content it does a million times more.

[SilverWarriorWolf]

Controversial opinion: comic fans will never agree on anything. Ever.

[byrd156]

Here's is my controversial opinion for the day:

The young Justice cartoon does the comics universe much, much better than the comics.

Almost everything that makes DC "DC" is there, while the comics have become a soulless editorially mandated empty shell.

I don't think that's controversial but then again I agree 110%.

[byrd156]

Controversial opinion: comic fans will never agree on anything. Ever.

I don't agree with you.

[Hilden B. Lade]

Let's be honest, Ocean to Ocean by Pitbull from Aquaman IS the Song of the Generation.