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  1. #2056
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Darkseid needs to go to sleep for five-to-ten years. There's two threat levels in DC now. Lex/Joker and Darkseid. No in between. It's made the DCU a very shallow place. Put Darkseid to bed and really build him up again. He's the end boss of every DC story these days and I'm so tired of it.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Lex and Joker should probably be given a break as well.
    Are these controversial? I agree, both Darkseid and Joker should be given a break, and probably Luthor too at this point.

    I was gung-ho for Luthor during the "Good Lex" arc early on in Rebirth, but they never went as far with it as I wanted. My ideal version of retiring Luthor would be to make him a good guy until the next reboot.

    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    I expected more pushback for my last post. Fine, I'll really go for it this time.

    Two-Face is Batman's best, most interesting enemy and provides the best conflict for Bruce. A former friend and legal crusader who fell, but always remains inside the monster we see before us. He'll always be just present enough that Bruce wants to save his soul, but he can never do it. He reflects a lot of trappings Bruce himself does (dual identities, trauma causing his start of darkness, an all-consuming obsession that reels him back in even when he gets out momentarily) and overall presents the most material to work with. Killer design, too.

    The Joker has been ruined by his significance to fans turning him into some plot device instead of a character, and it has lead to lazier writing with him.

    Fight me.
    Sorry mate, you're right. Two-Face is underrated and a truly great character, and Joker just isn't that cool anymore. Nothing to fight over.

    Although I feel like you get bonus points for somehow managing to make me feel like I just dunked on you by agreeing with you. It's kind of a nice feeling, honestly.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  2. #2057
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    The YJ cartoon problem is too many characters and too much focus on relationship drama.
    I can get the accusation, and I’ll admit I think it had argumentative merit, but my controversial opinion comes from the opposite end:

    Young Justice, even as overstuffed and limited in time to tell the story as it is, is vastly superior to both the entire DCAU that began with Justice League: War and ended with that Justice League Dark: Apokilips War movie... and the vast bulk of DC’s general comic output from the New 52 on.

    For me, the thing that “proves” that is how much I’ve realized I want more stuff set in the Young Justice universe, and even on characters who I don’t care about in other media; the show being overstuffed and making me want to see more and more stuff that they keep moving past is a problem, but a problem that I’m sure some producers would love to have.

    I mean, they sold me on Arsenal without an arm after I was convinced that Rise of Arsenal had disproved that idea’s feasibility, have me actually engrossed and buying in on the drama of stuff like Clone Roy and Cheshire’s marriage when I hate the “drama” and stuff in the CW shows, have me actually impressed, intimidated, and fascinated by Vandal Savage when I usually considered him an also-ran immortal villain, made Sportsmaster of all poeple an awesome villain to have guest-Star in an episode, and managed to establish a Bat-family that includes the four male Robins and three Batgirls (with only Bette maybe not counting, o else it would be four Batgirls as well).

    There were times with the New 52 and the movie set where I dropped multiple books or even desired their cancellation because I thought they were becoming liabilities to the brand, or where they seemed to take one step back for every step forward with the movies.

    In contrast, the solution I see to most disgruntled Young Justice fans is ... they need to produce more Young Justice stuff.

    I mean, if Greg Weisman were the overseer for a dozen books set in the Young Justice universe... I think there’s a strong chance they might outlast a bunch of their counterparts in the mainline.
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  3. #2058
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I actually just ordered the Blu Ray set for season 2 since I never got around to finishing it. I've been in a Weisman mood since I'm showing my roommates Gargoyles, with Spectacular Spider-Man also on the list.

    I think it being overcrowded and disliking some of the interpretations of the characters makes it the weakest Weisman show for me personally, but it's still pretty damn good overall. If Weisman tackled an individual DC property for a cartoon I'd give it a chance in a heart beat, especially Wonder Woman. Helps that I'm craving good DC content, and the comics currently aren't doing much

  4. #2059
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I can get the accusation, and I’ll admit I think it had argumentative merit, but my controversial opinion comes from the opposite end:

    Young Justice, even as overstuffed and limited in time to tell the story as it is, is vastly superior to both the entire DCAU that began with Justice League: War and ended with that Justice League Dark: Apokilips War movie... and the vast bulk of DC’s general comic output from the New 52 on.

    For me, the thing that “proves” that is how much I’ve realized I want more stuff set in the Young Justice universe, and even on characters who I don’t care about in other media; the show being overstuffed and making me want to see more and more stuff that they keep moving past is a problem, but a problem that I’m sure some producers would love to have.

    I mean, they sold me on Arsenal without an arm after I was convinced that Rise of Arsenal had disproved that idea’s feasibility, have me actually engrossed and buying in on the drama of stuff like Clone Roy and Cheshire’s marriage when I hate the “drama” and stuff in the CW shows, have me actually impressed, intimidated, and fascinated by Vandal Savage when I usually considered him an also-ran immortal villain, made Sportsmaster of all poeple an awesome villain to have guest-Star in an episode, and managed to establish a Bat-family that includes the four male Robins and three Batgirls (with only Bette maybe not counting, o else it would be four Batgirls as well).

    There were times with the New 52 and the movie set where I dropped multiple books or even desired their cancellation because I thought they were becoming liabilities to the brand, or where they seemed to take one step back for every step forward with the movies.

    In contrast, the solution I see to most disgruntled Young Justice fans is ... they need to produce more Young Justice stuff.

    I mean, if Greg Weisman were the overseer for a dozen books set in the Young Justice universe... I think there’s a strong chance they might outlast a bunch of their counterparts in the mainline.
    I will confess to feeling a good deal of "meh" over YJ S3. I was really looking forward to it until I got into it. They've always interpreted the characters a bit, but I thought they went too far with Geo-Force, Halo, and Forager (even though I really liked both YJ Halo and YJ Forager; it's just they're neither Halo nor Forager).

  5. #2060
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    I'm normally a real sitckler for keeping Kirby's characters as close to Kirby's vision as possible, but I always thought the original Forager was more than a little unintentionally fascistic. I'm sure Kirby, that famed Nazi-fighter, didn't do it on purpose, but just listen to how this sounds!

    The colony bugs are all incapable of rising to the level of higher callings, and are trapped in their meager cycle of existence, never experiencing sophisticated thought, or wondering about the world beyond, but Forager can "harbor values not known in the colony," Forager is not like the other bugs, as the Prime One says, "because you ask questions, Forager! And what we see as 'living,' you see as courage, loyalty, fondness... brotherhood!" And it turns out, this difference, this emotional superiority, is explicitly because he's a member of a higher race! Yuck!

    I'll take Fred Bugg (with two Gs) every single time.

    As for Halo, I thought it was pretty clever how YJ3 basically inverted the dynamic of Halo from the classic Outsider comics, but I can see where a big fan of Halo would be bothered. I only read probably one comic with Halo in it prior to watching YJ3.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  6. #2061
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I'm normally a real sitckler for keeping Kirby's characters as close to Kirby's vision as possible, but I always thought the original Forager was more than a little unintentionally fascistic. I'm sure Kirby, that famed Nazi-fighter, didn't do it on purpose, but just listen to how this sounds!

    The colony bugs are all incapable of rising to the level of higher callings, and are trapped in their meager cycle of existence, never experiencing sophisticated thought, or wondering about the world beyond, but Forager can "harbor values not known in the colony," Forager is not like the other bugs, as the Prime One says, "because you ask questions, Forager! And what we see as 'living,' you see as courage, loyalty, fondness... brotherhood!" And it turns out, this difference, this emotional superiority, is explicitly because he's a member of a higher race! Yuck!

    I'll take Fred Bugg (with two Gs) every single time.
    Tellingly both YJ and the DCAU avoided this depiction with Forager. Probably because they noticed what you did.

  7. #2062
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    I can get the accusation, and I’ll admit I think it had argumentative merit, but my controversial opinion comes from the opposite end:

    Young Justice, even as overstuffed and limited in time to tell the story as it is, is vastly superior to both the entire DCAU that began with Justice League: War and ended with that Justice League Dark: Apokilips War movie... and the vast bulk of DC’s general comic output from the New 52 on.

    For me, the thing that “proves” that is how much I’ve realized I want more stuff set in the Young Justice universe, and even on characters who I don’t care about in other media; the show being overstuffed and making me want to see more and more stuff that they keep moving past is a problem, but a problem that I’m sure some producers would love to have.

    I mean, they sold me on Arsenal without an arm after I was convinced that Rise of Arsenal had disproved that idea’s feasibility, have me actually engrossed and buying in on the drama of stuff like Clone Roy and Cheshire’s marriage when I hate the “drama” and stuff in the CW shows, have me actually impressed, intimidated, and fascinated by Vandal Savage when I usually considered him an also-ran immortal villain, made Sportsmaster of all poeple an awesome villain to have guest-Star in an episode, and managed to establish a Bat-family that includes the four male Robins and three Batgirls (with only Bette maybe not counting, o else it would be four Batgirls as well).

    There were times with the New 52 and the movie set where I dropped multiple books or even desired their cancellation because I thought they were becoming liabilities to the brand, or where they seemed to take one step back for every step forward with the movies.

    In contrast, the solution I see to most disgruntled Young Justice fans is ... they need to produce more Young Justice stuff.

    I mean, if Greg Weisman were the overseer for a dozen books set in the Young Justice universe... I think there’s a strong chance they might outlast a bunch of their counterparts in the mainline.
    I mean, I don' think it's the only problem people have with the show.

    I think there are certain characters whose portrayal in other media people prefer to their YJ characterization or who the show hasn't really done anything with...like, I think Jerry O'Connel's Superman is probably more popular then Earth-16 Superman. People still complain about how he handled Conner and how that was resolved over a time-skip. Wonder Woman's mythos got more focus in one movie then she's really had across three seasons, beyond introducing the Wonder Girls and Devastation.

    I love the idea of a fully-fledged Batfamily in an animated series but if you don't end up doing much with them, I'm not going to be as appreciative of it as I might be. People hyped for the animated debuts of Spoiler, Cassandra Cain, and Arrowette only for them to not end up doing anything with them would understandably be disappointed. And it's not like you can expect them to fix that in the subsequent season when you look at how they've handled Tim.

    No DC media can be all things for everyone, that's why it's important to have different takes and different kinds of adaptions. Would we have ever seen an accurate adaption of 90's Superboy if not for the Reign of the Sueprmen film?
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    I think it being overcrowded and disliking some of the interpretations of the characters makes it the weakest Weisman show for me personally, but it's still pretty damn good overall. If Weisman tackled an individual DC property for a cartoon I'd give it a chance in a heart beat, especially Wonder Woman. Helps that I'm craving good DC content, and the comics currently aren't doing much
    I like what I've seen of Wonder Woman in YJ but not enough of his take on her and her world to confirm whether I'd want

  8. #2063
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Honestly, I like very little of the adult heroes in YJ.

    Superman's better in season 3 than in the previous two, I suppose. Aquaman is pretty solid in that one s1 episode. Zatara's a nice touch, before... you know. But I'm not sure if I like Zatara as a character, or if I just like the idea of someone else from Action Comics # 1 showing up from time to time. Certainly I'm not fond of overprotective father characters in general. Also, I think it reflects on the League pretty badly that they just let Doctor Fate get away with taking Zatara's life like that.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  9. #2064
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Honestly, I like very little of the adult heroes in YJ.

    Superman's better in season 3 than in the previous two, I suppose. Aquaman is pretty solid in that one s1 episode. Zatara's a nice touch, before... you know. But I'm not sure if I like Zatara as a character, or if I just like the idea of someone else from Action Comics # 1 showing up from time to time. Certainly I'm not fond of overprotective father characters in general. Also, I think it reflects on the League pretty badly that they just let Doctor Fate get away with taking Zatara's life like that.
    Aquaman always gets shown up by his sidekick whenever he gets to do anything. Is it any wonder Kaldur is Aquaman by season 3 ?

    Another thing I thought was weird with the League was that Batman and J'onn saw what M'Gann was doing to the Krolotean but Superboy was the only one who saw a problem with it? Although he really should've exposed what she was willing to do when she tried to tamper with his mind to get him to forget their relationship problems (man, M'Gann was pretty bad in season 2).

  10. #2065
    Spectacular Member Valentonis's Avatar
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    I guess while we're talking Young Justice I'll share my controversial opinion, the first half of Season 3 was amazing and everything I wanted for the show, I think it stands with the best of season 1. I'll admit that I'm biased because I'm a Nightwing fan and that was the half of the season that featured him the most, but YJ Dick is a great character in general so the correlation doesn't come as a surprise.

  11. #2066
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I like what I've seen of Wonder Woman in YJ but not enough of his take on her and her world to confirm whether I'd want
    I agree we would need to see more of her, but considering Weisman's experience with writing myth and folklore into plots (Gargoyles) and how awesome a show that is exclusively focused on one IP (Spider-Man), I think he could do great with Wonder Woman. People in a desert can't afford to refuse any water offered to them

    Though I'm annoyed that of all the Wonder Woman villains, he's only brought in Devastation who I'm not fond of to begin with. And even then, she doesn't seem like comics Devastation, just a generic butch lady thug.

    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Honestly, I like very little of the adult heroes in YJ.

    Superman's better in season 3 than in the previous two, I suppose. Aquaman is pretty solid in that one s1 episode. Zatara's a nice touch, before... you know. But I'm not sure if I like Zatara as a character, or if I just like the idea of someone else from Action Comics # 1 showing up from time to time. Certainly I'm not fond of overprotective father characters in general. Also, I think it reflects on the League pretty badly that they just let Doctor Fate get away with taking Zatara's life like that.
    Superman was better in season 2 from what I've seen. I think on paper his arc in season 1 is fine; he has no obligation to be comfortable with Connor's existence, as his DNA was used without his permission. It just goes on for way too long so they could resolve it in the finale, and is chiefly done to provide angst for Superboy (albeit understandable angst). I've seen people say they hate Superman for how he treats Connor, and these aren't even Superman fanboys going in being nitpicky, these are casuals who don't know much about him. Not helped by Roy Harper, an actual teenager, being much more mature in how he handles the revelation of his clone's existence.

    But on a more positive note, I was digging Batman and Wonder Woman in the show and Superman was much improved from what little I saw in season 2.

  12. #2067
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Aquaman always gets shown up by his sidekick whenever he gets to do anything. Is it any wonder Kaldur is Aquaman by season 3 ?
    All the adults get shown up by the kids. Like, take a look at the season 2 scene where the team and the League attack the alien lair (the episode when Kaldur debuts in Manta armor), each time a hero shows up with their sidekick, count how many aliens and/or mechs each takes down and you'll find that the kids always do more damage.

    We're not really supposed to like or root for the adults though, especially in season 1. But you notice how in each season the adults tend to become more sympathetic and likable? Well, we had that secret society of heroes in season 3, but generally as the original cast age the other adults become less d-baggy. I mean, look at Superman; he went from "this clone is not my f*cking problem!" in season 1 to "Of course I'll be your best man, brother!" in season 3.

    I think the best thing about the show however, is the sense of it being a whole world. This is probably the tightest, most interconnected continuity DC has had since forever, with tons of stuff happening off screen that we only get bits and pieces of, but it all tracks and fits, and it's kind of interesting to see minor players come back in for a minute; like we never saw the relationship between Psimon and Devastation unfold, but it's still fun and sweet and creepy when you find out they've been dating for a while. We see very little of Zee or the Fate-Zatara situation, but when it does pop back up it sucks you right in, as if you hadn't missed anything.

    I think seasons 2 and 3 were far less tight than season 1, and I do miss having all the focus on a small cast. But the YJ world feels like it really is all connected and has a shared history (even if we only get glimpses of it). Meanwhile, the comics struggle to answer basic questions like "did Superman die in this continuity?" and "Is Year One or Zero Year still canon?"

    If the comics were half as well constructed as the YJ cartoon, we'd be lucky indeed.

    My only serious gripe with the show is the gratuitous violence of season 3. I used to watch this cartoon with both my kids, but my daughter is only six and is way too young to watch Lobo sink a hook straight through a teenaged girl and then drag her corpse across the ground. My son and I enjoyed season 3 but I'm sad I had to leave my little girl out.
    Last edited by Ascended; 06-04-2020 at 05:58 PM.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

  13. #2068
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    All the adults get shown up by the kids. Like, take a look at the season 2 scene where the team and the League attack the alien lair (the episode when Kaldur debuts in Manta armor), each time a hero shows up with their sidekick, count how many aliens and/or mechs each takes down and you'll find that the kids always do more damage.

    We're not really supposed to like or root for the adults though, especially in season 1. But you notice how in each season the adults tend to become more sympathetic and likable? Well, we had that secret society of heroes in season 3, but generally as the original cast age the other adults become less d-baggy. I mean, look at Superman; he went from "this clone is not my f*cking problem!" in season 1 to "Of course I'll be your best man, brother!" in season 3.

    I think the best thing about the show however, is the sense of it being a whole world. This is probably the tightest, most interconnected continuity DC has had since forever, with tons of stuff happening off screen that we only get bits and pieces of, but it all tracks and fits, and it's kind of interesting to see minor players come back in for a minute; like we never saw the relationship between Psimon and Devastation unfold, but it's still fun and sweet and creepy when you find out they've been dating for a while. We see very little of Zee or the Fate-Zatara situation, but when it does pop back up it sucks you right in, as if you hadn't missed anything.

    I think seasons 2 and 3 were far less tight than season 1, and I do miss having all the focus on a small cast. But the YJ world feels like it really is all connected and has a shared history (even if we only get glimpses of it). Meanwhile, the comics struggle to answer basic questions like "did Superman die in this continuity?" and "Is Year One or Zero Year still canon?"

    If the comics were half as well constructed as the YJ cartoon, we'd be lucky indeed.

    My only serious gripe with the show is the gratuitous violence of season 3. I used to watch this cartoon with both my kids, but my daughter is only six and is way too young to watch Lobo sink a hook straight through a teenaged girl and then drag her corpse across the ground. My son and I enjoyed season 3 but I'm sad I had to leave my little girl out.
    I agree it's probably the most cohesive and lengthy DC continuity but I think that's something you could only really accomplish with a TV show with set showrunners and staff writers which I don't think is something that could easily be replicated in comics (because every franchise is their own independent thing with 5+ writers or something to that effect).

    I think they got a little gratuitous with season 3 but I think it's still the same show the creators envisioned, it's just steadily gotten more mature or geared towards older audiences overtime I got the sense even back during season 2. I guess it's an attempt to grow with the audience as the cast do.

  14. #2069
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Yeah, I agree with most of the last few posts. The heroes are better in season 3 than in the first two seasons, they're awful in those first two seasons, and ultimately the reason seems pretty clear - the show is designed to showcase the kids; if the adults are too competent or likable, they risk eclipsing the main characters. As the kids become grown-ups, they're not controlled by the grown-ups so much any more. I still think it's kind of stupid though.

    And similarly, there's no doubt to me that YJ has the most cohesive and comprehensive DCU in a long time. Maybe since post-Crisis started to convert to pre-Flashpoint in like 2001, or maybe just ever. But also, yeah, I doubt it would work for that long outside of a very limited kind of sub-franchise, nor should it. Cutting down on all the variant things DC can be is usually a bad idea - but within a single iteration, I love the kind of depth YJ has to offer, and I wish we got to see it more often, in more universes or pieces of media.
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  15. #2070
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I agree it's probably the most cohesive and lengthy DC continuity but I think that's something you could only really accomplish with a TV show with set showrunners and staff writers which I don't think is something that could easily be replicated in comics (because every franchise is their own independent thing with 5+ writers or something to that effect).
    You're not wrong, but I do think comics could achieve a similar level of cohesiveness; it'd require a dedicated continuity editor or two (or if DC has a similar position already, that person needs to do their job better), and more lead time for planning and plotting. It's not impossible...but it would certainly be more difficult and/or expensive.

    It's not really worth effort it would require, but it *is* a shame.

    I think they got a little gratuitous with season 3 but I think it's still the same show the creators envisioned, it's just steadily gotten more mature or geared towards older audiences overtime I got the sense even back during season 2. I guess it's an attempt to grow with the audience as the cast do.
    Well, the show has slowly become more mature as the characters and audience have aged. I don't have a problem with that at all, especially since it's meant leaving some of the heavier handed elements (like Superboy's drug addiction in S1) behind in favor of *slightly* more delicate allegory. But the excessive violence isn't "mature," it's just excessive. It's still YJ, still the product Weisman and co. envisioned and it's still a damn good show and a great, honest follow-up to previous seasons....only now my daughter can't watch it. I'm not offended by the gore or anything, and this is a "me" problem and not a "show" problem, but I'm sad I can't continue the family tradition of watching this show with both my kids.
    "We all know the truth: more connects us than separates us. But in times of crisis the wise build bridges, while the foolish build barriers. We must find a way to look after one another, as if we were one single tribe."

    ~ Black Panther.

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