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  1. #1906

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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    I would be perfectly ok with anyone beating superman. My post was about those characters beating superman. Was it not? I am just tired of the propaganda that is batman, Which my post was about. I saw a guy say that batman beats galactus with "hardwork". Sheesh! And it was entirely serious .Furthermore, comics is still art and storytelling. So it isn't obvious. Only those with business outlook just see business. I am not that guy. Call me, naive or whatever. That isn't the point. The point is there were tons of nonpowered superheroes or pulp characters before and after batman.Yet, the guy is treated as somekind of special case with special power 'hard work". As for being a strongman, superman is still that. It's just his target demographic that has changed. So other than with guys like morrison we don't much see that side of the character.
    Here is another controversial opinion. I think the phantom would kick batman's ass with one hand tied behind his back. Batman has got nothing on his predecessor.
    The irony in you complaining about the perks Batman's popularity brings when Superman gets the same treatment. Why is Superman portrayed as the end all be all, big gun of the DCU when characters like Martian Manhunter, Shazam, Wonder Woman, the Flash, Icon etc are just as powerful if not more than him?

    You know the reason why: Superman makes more money than all those other characters combined, so he gets the in-universe rub of being the strongest hero on Earth despite a lot of characters being just as strong as he is. But of course you have no problem with that.

  2. #1907
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    The irony in you complaining about the perks Batman's popularity brings when Superman gets the same treatment. Why is Superman portrayed as the end all be all, big gun of the DCU when characters like Martian Manhunter, Shazam, Wonder Woman, the Flash, Icon etc are just as powerful if not more than him?

    You know the reason why: Superman makes more money than all those other characters combined, so he gets the in-universe rub of being the strongest hero on Earth despite a lot of characters being just as strong as he is. But of course you have no problem with that.
    One, he is an overdog. The character was supposed to take power out of the equation. Any power structure in the universe was supposed to get serious beating from the existence of superman.He is a bully who bullies your bully, so that your bully knows what it's like being you. Shazam, martian manhunter, wonder woman, flash,...etc all have beaten superman in various ways and he has consistently been putting them over. You don't get to say those nonsense. He has taken some w's from them, he has given them many L's in return in spades. Superman is also given a jobber status, many of the times for others to take a crack at him. Unlike the character whose shtick is burying other characters with simplistic plans. He is literally the triple h of dc "the cerebral assassin" . The guy is claimed to be this great strategist. His biggest plan is "i threw a rock at him". And Yeah! That puts him on the same level as croc. Batman's L and W ratio is nothing compared to superman. Batman's w's is so far ahead that, its not even funny.Number L's, i have seen bruce take are from wonder woman and wally west. Wally west one wasn't even a fight. Bruce was being pissy jackass. Wally doesn't take shit from anyone. So he gave it right back.

    Furthermore, that post isn't about win's or lose's. Its about perception and propaganda . Batman being posterchild for nonpowered heroes who ourcome obstacles with determination, will, work, resourceful... Etc. I can accept. Yet, the playing field isn't level. If you are gonna have batman beat superman. Then that luxury should be given to all the pulp heroes and superheroes.They should all be made members of the league and be treated with same courtesy.The propaganda that batman is special cause he doesn't have powers need to stop. There are plenty of guys like that in dc. It's very old company. There will always be pulp heroes/vigilante's modelled after the grey ghost/the phantom, zorro.. Etc.

    Finally, between superman and batman there is only one god. That isn't the strongman vigilante from space. It's the guy who pullsout any nonsense from his belt to beat an opponent.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-22-2020 at 10:28 PM.

  3. #1908

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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    One, he is an overdog. The character was supposed to take power out of the equation. Any power structure in the universe was supposed to get serious beating from the existence of superman.He is a bully who bullies your bully, so that your bully knows what it's like being you. Shazam, martian manhunter, wonder woman, flash,...etc all have beaten superman in various ways and he has consistently been putting them over. You don't get to say those nonsense. He has taken some w's from them, he has given them many L's in return in spades. Superman is also given a jobber status, many of the times for others to take a crack at him. Unlike the character whose shtick is burying other characters with simplistic plans. He is literally the triple h of dc "the cerebral assassin" . The guy is claimed to be this great strategist. His biggest plan is "i threw a rock at him". And Yeah! That puts him on the same level as croc. Batman's L and W ratio is nothing compared to superman. Batman's w's is so far ahead that, its not even funny.Number L's, i have seen bruce take are from wonder woman and wally west. Wally west one wasn't even a fight. Bruce was being pissy jackass. Wally doesn't take shit from anyone. So he gave it right back.

    Furthermore, that post isn't about win's or lose's. Its about perception and propaganda . Batman being posterchild for nonpowered heroes who ourcome obstacles with determination, will, work, resourceful... Etc. I can accept. Yet, the playing field isn't level. If you are gonna have batman beat superman. Then that luxury should be given to all the pulp heroes and superheroes.They should all be made members of the league and be treated with same courtesy.The propaganda that batman is special cause he doesn't have powers need to stop. There are plenty of guys like that in dc. It's very old company. There will always be pulp heroes/vigilante's modelled after the grey ghost/the phantom, zorro.. Etc.

    Finally, between superman and batman there is only one god. That isn't the strongman vigilante from space. It's the guy who pullsout any nonsense from his belt to beat an opponent.
    You do realize Superman's archenemy is just a bald, regular human businessman, right? If Lex can fight Superman why can't other regular humans? You keep talking about non powered heroes being in the JL as if characters like Green Arrow don't exist. Batman isn't the only character without powers who has been a member of the JL or other super teams.

    Green Arrow, various Batfamily members, Lex Luthor, Joker, Hawkeye, Black Widow, various JSA members, etc have been on the JL, Avengers, Titans, Legion of Doom and JSA over the years so I'm not getting your point with all this.

  4. #1909
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    Batman beating superman is just pretty stupid.

    I never understand why we cant get more batman losing stories in general. Gotham is like the apocalypse with a corrupt police force - he's clearly losing the fight against crime. He should be more like classic spiderman where even when he wins he loses or have cases like zodiac killer which he cant solve. Would add a lot to the character for me.

  5. #1910
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    You do realize Superman's archenemy is just a bald, regular human businessman, right? If Lex can fight Superman why can't other regular humans? You keep talking about non powered heroes being in the JL as if characters like Green Arrow don't exist. Batman isn't the only character without powers who has been a member of the JL or other super teams.

    Green Arrow, various Batfamily members, Lex Luthor, Joker, Hawkeye, Black Widow, various JSA members, etc have been on the JL, Avengers, Titans, Legion of Doom and JSA over the years so I'm not getting your point with all this.
    Not really, lex is villainous version of dc's iron man. He is as non powered as steel or a robot. As said, no they do not. Batman is continually pushed as special. he alone works hard to beat his opponent and his humanity is touted as something other heroes don't have. That's propaganda. These other heroes and pulp guys are put on these teams for namesake and in minor capacity. They aren't given any importance, they are forgotten or sometimes even made into jokes. Green arrow is the only guy given any due. If batman can take out anyone and sometimes all of them at same time, then nexttime the vigilante should be allowed to shoot down darkseid. It's that simple. I love those old heroes. As for batfamily, they are part of the problem. Those guys get to ride the coat tail. Them being allowed to be something in dc isn't much of a shocker. Jsa is seen as the prototypes, for "real deals". Joker is their priced procession ofcourse he one bad's every hero.Hawkeye and blackwidow doesn't matter. Marvel has a better power scaling and balanced system.They don't go "Spiderman - popular, let's have him beat galactus to satiate the power fantasy of his fans and get money" as far as i know.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-23-2020 at 12:34 AM.

  6. #1911

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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Not really, lex is villainous version of dc's iron man. He is as non powered as steel or a robot. As said, no they do not. Batman is continually pushed as special. he alone works hard to beat his opponent and his humanity is touted as something other heroes don't have. That's propaganda. These other heroes and pulp guys are put on these teams for namesake and in minor capacity. They aren't given any importance, they are forgotten or sometimes even made into jokes. Green arrow is the only guy given any due. If batman can take out anyone and sometimes all of them at same time, then nexttime the vigilante should be allowed to shoot down darkseid. It's that simple. I love those old heroes. As for batfamily, they are part of the problem. Those guys get to ride the coat tail. Them being allowed to be something in dc isn't much of a shocker. Jsa is seen as the prototypes, for "real deals". Joker is their priced procession ofcourse he one bad's every hero.Hawkeye and blackwidow doesn't matter. Marvel has a better power scaling and balanced system.They don't go "Spiderman - popular, let's have him beat galactus to satiate the power fantasy of his fans and get money" as far as i know.
    Wait, why don't Hawkeye and Black Widow matter? Because they hurt your argument? Lex Luthor is non powered just like Batman, nice goalpost moving. If your argument is he's somehow less human than Batman because he wears power armor more often I think that's bs. Batman, to the chagrin of many wears power armor a lot too in the modern age. Joker is ok because "he's their prized possession" so him getting popularity perks is ok but not Batman?

    You want to see less popular characters to get same treatment as Batman but don't want the likes of Martian Manhunter to get the same strongest hero on Earth, defacto leader of the Justice League push that Superman gets.

    It's obvious you just hate Batman but are hiding behind hypocritical excuses to defend your bias against him.

  7. #1912
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    Wait, why don't Hawkeye and Black Widow matter? Because they hurt your argument? Lex Luthor is non powered just like Batman, nice goalpost moving. If your argument is he's somehow less human than Batman because he wears power armor more often I think that's bs. Batman, to the chagrin of many wears power armor a lot too in the modern age. Joker is ok because "he's their prized possession" so him getting popularity perks is ok but not Batman?

    You want to see less popular characters to get same treatment as Batman but don't want the likes of Martian Manhunter to get the same strongest hero on Earth, defacto leader of the Justice League push that Superman gets.

    It's obvious you just hate Batman but are hiding behind hypocritical excuses to defend your bias against him.
    Can't you actually read? We are talking dc, not marvel. Tell me last time hawkeye beat galactus? Their powers structures are built differently. Batman literally has gone toe to toe with darkseid. If you are gonna do that, fine. I don't particularly care. Actually level the playing field for everyone. Have system where anyone can beat anyone.Don't give false narrative that is just propaganda about how batman is this dangerous man on the planet or how he is special. He ain't . Sure, lex is nonpowered like ironman. Are you even hearing younself?he has a giant mech suit that make's mince meat out of everyone. No, my argument is batman isn't human like lex luthor or clark kent. Nope! Mate joker isn't ok. He is in the same idiotic boat as batman.he should be just a nut. But, he one bad days the best. Posterboy for stupid propaganda.fine, go for it. Just have other non powered villains be given the same opportunity.

    What you are doing is accusing me of selfish motive and hidden agendas. Not actually contenting to the argument being made. I don't a damn if martian manhunter is made the most powerful or made a hero. The real original superman isn't much of hand holding leader type. If he were to run things.it would be like a bunch of competent guys just doing their things or what they are good at.While,he leads in action. Superman is reckless. He is a leap before you look kind of person. But, he is also very adaptive, instinctive and intuitive to counter balance that. The martian has lead the team and beaten superman many time. I haven't complained once. Superman fans largely complain only when the character is written as incompetent, lazy flying brick. Which i in the original post criticed the character for as well.You have literally no grounds to stand on here. In fact, i think aquaman should lead the team. The guy is literally named arthur.

    furthermore, I don't need to hide my biases. I can Simply state that, batman is an overrated character put on a pedestal with mere propaganda. He has good stories. He would because he is stuck in a cycle of where the character can make money despite the quality of the product, get good creative.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-23-2020 at 02:08 AM.

  8. #1913

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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Can't you actually read? We are talking dc, not marvel. Tell me last time hawkeye beat galactus? Their powers structures are built differently. Batman literally has gone toe to toe with darkseid. If you are gonna do that, fine. I don't particularly care. Actually level the playing field for everyone. Have system where anyone can beat anyone.Don't give false narrative that is just propaganda about how batman is this dangerous man on the planet or how he is special. He ain't . Sure, lex is nonpowered like ironman. Are you even hearing younself?he has a giant mech suit that make's mince meat out of everyone. No, my argument is batman isn't human like lex luthor or clark kent. Nope! Mate joker isn't ok. He is in the same idiotic boat as batman.he should be just a nut. But, he one bad days the best. Posterboy for stupid propaganda.fine, go for it. Just have other non powered villains be given the same opportunity.

    What you are doing is accusing me of selfish motive and hidden agendas. Not actually contenting to the argument being made. I don't a damn if martian manhunter is made the most powerful or made a hero. The real original superman isn't much of hand holding leader type. If he were to run things.it would be like a bunch of competent guys just doing their things or what they are good at.While,he leads in action. Superman is reckless. He is a leap before you look kind of person. But, he is also very adaptive, instinctive and intuitive to counter balance that. The martian has lead the team and beaten superman many time. I haven't complained once. Superman fans largely complain only when the character is written as incompetent, lazy flying brick. Which i in the original post criticed the character for as well.You have literally no grounds to stand on here. In fact, i think aquaman should lead the team. The guy is literally named arthur.

    furthermore, I don't need to hide my biases. I can Simply state that, batman is an overrated character put on a pedestal with mere propaganda. He has good stories. He would because he is stuck in a cycle of where the character can make money despite the quality of the product, get good creative.
    My God, every post you make is some War and Peace length novel...and yes I can actually read, thank you. Your double standards are giving me a headeache. You're arguing from a place of "Batman's overrated, I don't like him" not from a place of logic. There's literally no difference in non metahuman Batman putting on the Hellbat suit to fight Darkseid and Lex Luthor putting on his Warsuit to fight Superman. None.

    Batman is propaganda? It's not that serious, my dude. Was it propaganda when Oliver Queen, a regular human, saved the Arrowverse from the Anti-Monitor in the CW Crisis? No. Was it propaganda when Clark "lol is this geek giving you trouble?" Kent came in and casually beat Steppenwolf in JL after the others were struggling with him?

    Why do you act dumbfounded that popular characters benefit from being popular. Do you think Spider-Man beat Firelord that one time because he's really that strong? C'mon.

  9. #1914
    ...of the Black Priests Midnight_v's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    My God, every post you make is some War and Peace length novel...and yes I can actually read, thank you. Your double standards are giving me a headeache. You're arguing from a place of "Batman's overrated, I don't like him" not from a place of logic. There's literally no difference in non metahuman Batman putting on the Hellbat suit to fight Darkseid and Lex Luthor putting on his Warsuit to fight Superman. None.

    Batman is propaganda? It's not that serious, my dude. Was it propaganda when Oliver Queen, a regular human, saved the Arrowverse from the Anti-Monitor in the CW Crisis? No. Was it propaganda when Clark "lol is this geek giving you trouble?" Kent came in and casually beat Steppenwolf in JL after the others were struggling with him?

    Why do you act dumbfounded that popular characters benefit from being popular. Do you think Spider-Man beat Firelord that one time because he's really that strong? C'mon.
    It's obvious you just hate Batman but are hiding behind hypocritical excuses to defend your bias against him.
    This^ and thanks I thought I was alone here for a second. Supermans plot armor is "Da THICKNESS" except when it comes to bats and man it drives them mad dunnit? Its not even that big but they
    sound like captain atom on that one cartoon and it they're best position.

    Batman beating superman is just pretty stupid.

    I never understand why we cant get more batman losing stories in general. Gotham is like the apocalypse with a corrupt police force - he's clearly losing the fight against crime. He should be more like classic spiderman where even when he wins he loses or have cases like zodiac killer which he cant solve. Would add a lot to the character for me.
    You answered your own question.
    "Why can't we get more batman losing stories in general" via "He's clearly losing the fight against crime" you'd have to be reading batman to really get that I imagine.

    Meanwhile you shouldn't be able to get a story where batman gets curbstomped "because you hate him" or out of vengeance for some crazy irritation your feeling about your favorite... thats too many peoples favorite. So try not to loudly "Yuck" their "Yum". Finally, he's not wolverine... you can't "worf effect batman" but he does lose to villians periodically and have zodiac killer situations "in his own book" but not in the justice league almost never in the justice league thats not his role there. He goes down pretty hard in DCeased imho somethings are just beyond people.

    All that being said... "I hate batman's success" ISN'T a controversial opinion round here at all so its disingenuous on multiple levels, but from a "True superman fan" complaining about plot armor via sales is just laughable, and inciting. smh.

    EDIT: That being said I just watched Harley Quinn defeat Granny Goodness, plot armor is the strongest power of them all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rWff2nQf9w
    Last edited by Midnight_v; 05-23-2020 at 06:31 AM.
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  10. #1915
    Astonishing Member manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The True Detective View Post
    My God, every post you make is some War and Peace length novel...and yes I can actually read, thank you. Your double standards are giving me a headeache. You're arguing from a place of "Batman's overrated, I don't like him" not from a place of logic. There's literally no difference in non metahuman Batman putting on the Hellbat suit to fight Darkseid and Lex Luthor putting on his Warsuit to fight Superman. None.

    Batman is propaganda? It's not that serious, my dude. Was it propaganda when Oliver Queen, a regular human, saved the Arrowverse from the Anti-Monitor in the CW Crisis? No. Was it propaganda when Clark "lol is this geek giving you trouble?" Kent came in and casually beat Steppenwolf in JL after the others were struggling with him?

    Why do you act dumbfounded that popular characters benefit from being popular. Do you think Spider-Man beat Firelord that one time because he's really that strong? C'mon.
    There isn't. Which is exactly what i am saying. Yet, batman is treated as if did something special.lex not really. any idiot would do with the kind resources he has. As said, "i threw a rock at him" is bruce's biggest achievement. Yet, none of other non-powered characters is even allowed to be in the vicinity as darkseid. That's the nonsense i am calling out.i am the one with double standard?Riiight, you are accusing me of have no logic. I had good laugh with that.

    He is. Arrow was given a send off which cost him his life. He didn't shoot darkseid with plot. Yes, it was propaganda in jl. The entire movie had superman bulldozing his opponents, with level zero difficulty . It sucked. It was no fun. It was boring. Once again, i want is a competent badass superman. Not whatever the heck! Was in that movie.

    Nope, i am not surprised. But, there is limit to how much its done. Batman is way past that line. Tell you what, have dick grayson be touted as better at his job than batman. Then have batman job for a couple of years to put over shining knight, vigilante, tex Thompson, the crimson avenger,question... Etc. Then have a couple of batman portrayals where batman is a bad villain(in writing) or mind controlled idiot , for literally every hero to beat or save because (i don't know) one of his flings(since he doesn't really have anyone) died. Then i will say batman is anywhere near the level superman in w and L ratio. If that's your argument for why batman shouldn't be putting characters over.Finally, you haven't contented with anything of my point, which was actually to level the playing field for other nonpowered heroes like black hawks and why its bad. All you did was defend batman. Trust dude, my opinion ain't gonna with your nonsense . I don't particularly care what happens to batman. But, the character is past the annoyance phase for me as dc premiere character. I normally, love pulp fiction characters of 20s, 30s and 40s.This guy gets on my nerves now.But, that's just me. The above bolded point ain't for me.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-23-2020 at 08:02 AM.

  11. #1916
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    I think some of the annoyance that comes from Batman surpassing Superman is that they had to change both characters around to get that to happen. Batman became darker and more of an insufferable prick, Superman became more boring and lost some of his edge, etc. When Superman was the most popular, he and Batman were buddies so Batman wasn't getting the short of the stick. Neither were other heroes really. The shift in popularity was perhaps inevitable, especially as it happened in the 80s when gritty anti-heroes were all the rage and Batman was easier to shift into that mold and Superman wasn't. But nowadays, in addition to being at times a God-mode Sue, Batman is a snarky judgmental bitch to other heroes and gets away with it because he's popular. It's not quite as bad now since Infinite Crisis (early 2000s was the worst Batman), but still crops up often enough.

    Superman meanwhile just puts up with it, and fans act aghast when he displays any sort of edge/spine. He was created to put arrogant corrupt billionaires in their place, the meekness he sometimes displays towards Batman because he has to be the "Light" and "blandly nice and inspirational" one isn't helping.

    Basically the deluge of Bat-media might be more tolerable if the character himself hadn't gotten Miller'd. I'd have no problem with Bronze Age Batman being everywhere and being more popular than Superman, or if other heroes like Wonder Woman, Aquaman, Flash etc. were given similar treatment. It may be petty, but Bat-Asshole being popular and everywhere over Superman and others is kind of disheartening.

  12. #1917
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    I think you've got a good grasp on it SagePerilous02 except that I don't think Superman had much edge by that time though that doesn't much bother me. I really do wish they'd quit with the naive/wholesome farmboy bit (played up too much, at least in many early adventure stories, even if only a cover) and kill the savior-idea (which I blame the movie for, but can't swear wasn't present before). The issues with Batman have been well--covered already.

    I do think "most popular character always wins" has some negative potential, though. Especially if done consistently in interactions with other solo heroes. And they love to have heroes combative (physically or verbally) with each other. I didn't really think about until a while ago when someone talked about Spider-Man. Obviously a completely different character type than Batman, of course. But still, Batman is most popular. A Batman fan reads a big Justice League story with Batman in a starring role. Makes sense. But then all other heroes turn out to mentally, morally, and tactically inferior to him. Fun for the Batman fan, I guess, but it alienates fans of the other characters. And the Batman fans have no reason to be interested in picking up new titles, since the other characters don't bring anything to the table. And, of course, they are weakened as characters by the inconsistency, incompetence, and/or lack of heroism.

    It may be petty, but Bat-Asshole being popular and everywhere over Superman and others is kind of disheartening.
    That's how I feel. Much as I don't like it, it seems badass Bat-God who treats everyone like crap is just super popular. People like that character. Even many who hate how he treats his family are perfectly fine with him treating outside heroes that way. They think he is superior and it's great to see him put other heroes in their place.
    Last edited by Tzigone; 05-23-2020 at 08:50 AM.

  13. #1918
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    Quote Originally Posted by Midnight_v View Post
    This^ and thanks I thought I was alone here for a second. Supermans plot armor is "Da THICKNESS" except when it comes to bats and man it drives them mad dunnit? Its not even that big but they
    sound like captain atom on that one cartoon and it they're best position.


    You answered your own question.
    "Why can't we get more batman losing stories in general" via "He's clearly losing the fight against crime" you'd have to be reading batman to really get that I imagine.

    Meanwhile you shouldn't be able to get a story where batman gets curbstomped "because you hate him" or out of vengeance for some crazy irritation your feeling about your favorite... thats too many peoples favorite. So try not to loudly "Yuck" their "Yum". Finally, he's not wolverine... you can't "worf effect batman" but he does lose to villians periodically and have zodiac killer situations "in his own book" but not in the justice league almost never in the justice league thats not his role there. He goes down pretty hard in DCeased imho somethings are just beyond people.

    All that being said... "I hate batman's success" ISN'T a controversial opinion round here at all so its disingenuous on multiple levels, but from a "True superman fan" complaining about plot armor via sales is just laughable, and inciting. smh.

    EDIT: That being said I just watched Harley Quinn defeat Granny Goodness, plot armor is the strongest power of them all https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rWff2nQf9w
    Well thats kind of the jarring dichotomy of the character.

    One book hes a great analytical mind but cant get human crime under control despite unlimited resources. He has to be two steps behind otherwise there are no stories to tell

    In a cosmic threat level book he has to be 2 steps ahead of the opposition otherwise hes dead in seconds.

  14. #1919
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I think you've got a good grasp on it SagePerilous02 except that I don't think Superman had much edge by that time though that doesn't much bother me. I really do wish they'd quit with the naive/wholesome farmboy bit (played up too much, at least in many early adventure stories, even if only a cover) and kill the savior-idea (which I blame the movie for, but can't swear wasn't present before). The issues with Batman have been well--covered already.
    Oh yeah, by that point Superman had lost an edge, but he also had a lot of quirks and a sprawling mythology to go along with his increased power at the cost of his rough and tumble side. I think the transition to post-TDKR Batman popularity also cost Superman those things and we got the wholesome/naive farm boy in return. Not that that was prevalent throughout the entire post-COIE era, but that seems to be where it started to gain traction.

    The Byrne reboot of Superman was very popular at that time, and he needed something because sales definitely weren't where they needed to be. But even if a revamp was unavoidable, it sucks that Byrne is the one that made the most sense to go with at that time. Frank Miller who hadn't completely gone over the edge at that point (and more importantly, would have had Steve Gerber as a co-pilot) would have likely created a comic that aged better than Byrne's stuff.

  15. #1920
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Oh yeah, by that point Superman had lost an edge, but he also had a lot of quirks and a sprawling mythology to go along with his increased power at the cost of his rough and tumble side.
    Oh yeah, that rough and tumble side was long gone. It's sort of two-pronged. First, like you said, the increase in power - you just can't have someone that powerful punching wifebeaters and threatening two-bit thugs. Not only does it make a very unthrilling story*, but he also just looks bad for physically hurting people that much weaker than himself. He doesn't need to hurt them to stop them, so if he did, he'd just look he was hurting people for the joy of it. Kinda sadistic. Second prong is just the change in tone in superhero comics in general in the 1940s & 1950s. Batman was just as affected. Just he's swung the other way since. I've never gotten into the sweeping, silver-age mythology, much preferring golden or modern ages, with much less Kryptonite and Krypton and with Superman not viewing himself as not one of us and so forth, but I acknowledge many loved it were sorry to see it go.

    * On the topic of less-than-thrilling stories, I miss a handful of thugs being a challenge to Batman. The days when a lucky blow the head could take him down. When his Robin could save him as well as the other way around. When he didn't always have the upper hand, even against ordinary criminals. Seeing the hero win is fantastic - I want the hero to win. But doesn't necessarily need to be a breeze. Of course, that gets into the issue of ever-increasing power (and threat) levels all around.

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