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  1. #271
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverWarriorWolf View Post
    But they still treat him differently. To me, it’s less that they don’t want him around and more they treat him like he’s 4.
    I mean, I didn't think it was that dramatic a change, but I think it would be hard for the League to not act differently having realized this adult guy they were hanging out with was actually a kid the entire time.

    Black Canary's really the only one who kind of talked down to him as a kid in that scene, but I'd still say she's still trying to be respectful about it.

    It's not even like it was an issue for the entire League. Red Tornado and Batman were fine with it.

  2. #272
    Incredible Member SilverWarriorWolf's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, I didn't think it was that dramatic a change, but I think it would be hard for the League to not act differently having realized this adult guy they were hanging out with was actually a kid the entire time.

    Black Canary's really the only one who kind of talked down to him as a kid in that scene, but I'd still say she's still trying to be respectful about it.

    It's not even like it was an issue for the entire League. Red Tornado and Batman were fine with it.
    I know they’re trying, and perhaps I was a little hard on them initially, but I still hold up my initial statement. It would simply be better if he stayed solo (or with his own family) until he hits 18. He can work with the league, but headaches like this occur when he’s a member.

  3. #273
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverWarriorWolf View Post
    I know they’re trying, and perhaps I was a little hard on them initially, but I still hold up my initial statement. It would simply be better if he stayed solo (or with his own family) until he hits 18. He can work with the league, but headaches like this occur when he’s a member.
    I mean, I think it depends on the continuity and what the writers were going for.

    Like, in Young Justice, they addressed it and then it was never really an issue again. On paper it's just following up on the themes of kids as Superheroes and what hat means when it comes to the Big Leagues.

    Contrast that with JLU where Superman found out Billy was a kid during their fight but afterwards the point of contention was Captain Marvel leaving because he didn't like how the League was operating.

  4. #274
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    A character's standing in universe should not be determined by their out-of-universe popularity. That's not how storytelling works.

  5. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    A character's standing in universe should not be determined by their out-of-universe popularity. That's not how storytelling works.
    Maybe not, but it seems easier for the people that pay to story tellers to swallow

  6. #276
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Maybe not, but it seems easier for the people that pay to story tellers to swallow
    That's a problem.

  7. #277
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    A character's standing in universe should not be determined by their out-of-universe popularity. That's not how storytelling works.
    There isn't really one true way for story telling to work. And it depends on what you mean by standing in universe. If the Justice League have high standing, it's because they have reasons both in and out of universe to have it.

  8. #278
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    That's a problem.
    Not really, it's a matter of differing tastes. You may have a point about quality of storytelling, but that's an individual aesthetic judgement, not one that can be planted as standard, deviance from which marks other audience members as somehow deficient.

    There's also an argument that such external influences (like sales, or character popularity) undermine the autonomy of a storyteller's expression. If an artistic creator wants full freedom of expression, the creator should use works they wholly own. DC's (indeed, all of the larger comic companies') shared universe characters and situations aren't the property of their creators. Further, their function is not to provide expression for those creators (or at least, that is not their sole function). The function of those characters and situations is to produce profitably marketable entertainment for an audience. It's the purview of editors and publishers to determine what serves that function, not just now but in the future, and by extension, the rules under which the shared universe will work. Including what assumptions one would make about in-universe character popularity.

    I guess that's a long way of saying, "if you want the aesthetically unenlightened to keep helping pay for the story, the story has to serve the aesthetically unenlightened, even if it means accepting some constraints on the storytelling."

  9. #279
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    If evil corporate giant DC hadn't take control of Superman and stuck him in a cycle of unchanging status quo for fifty or sixty years, then Jerry and Joe's creation would probably be about as well known as Flash Gordon: a generally forgotten, occasionally resurrected cult favorite, but hardly a cultural icon. Too bad about "The K-Metal" though, not to mention creator's rights. I honestly don't know whether I'd rather have had a more just, creator oriented comic industry, or a more popular, longer running version of Superman and other super-heroes.

    Heck, my brother used to think DC's "the Flash" was Flash Gordon, because everyone knows the name Flash Gordon, but how many non-fans know anything about the character? Maybe a little, if they've seen the '80s movie, but that's best known for its soundtrack, these days, and it certainly doesn't hold up that well next to Star Wars.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  10. #280
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    Siegel and Shuster probably knew instinctively that bringing Superman, their best idea, to National Allied/Detective Comics was not the smart way to go--since they had been working for that company for a few years and the whole time had tried to sell the idea to the newspaper syndicates. They likely believed that they could have more control and make more money if Superman appeared in the well-read papers rather than in the lowly comic books.

    Not always, but a lot of the time, comic strip creators had some ownership of the features they provided to the syndicates.

    I don't know if I want to play the game of "if this good thing had happened then this bad thing would have happened." Siegel and Shuster deserved to get rich off the thing they created. If that meant their work made money for only twenty years as a comic strip feature--then so be it. The comic books would have created their own ersatz versions of Superman anyway--as they did with other comic strip characters and as they did with Superman, as well. So how much would I, as a comic book fan, have lost? And do my selfish desires trump the right of others to have a good life?

    I suppose you could argue that the bubble would have burst for Jerry and Joe eventually, but you can't play god with the lives of other people.

    Yes, Flash Gordon was so well known when I was a kid that everyone assumed when you talked about "Flash" that you meant Flash Gordon--nobody assumed that you meant the Flash (Barry Allen). And Alex Raymond didn't sit on his laurels with Flash Gordon. In addition to inspiring a generation of comics artists--Raymond went on to co-create Jungle Jim, Secret Agent X-9 and Rip Kirby. Rip Kirby was the character I knew best in my childhood--because he appeared in our daily newspaper. It seemed odd to me that the guy had glasses, yet nobody treated him like a nerd or a weakling--he got to act like a hero. Which was revolutionary to me.

    Do comic strip and comic book characters deserve to exist forever? I think, in general with fiction, the indelible nature of some characters and some writing prevents others from creating new stuff. Because of capitalism, this old stuff stays around for a lot longer than it would if natural forces were at play. It doesn't really profit any one individual for a piece of fiction to exist past the life of the person that created it. The only reason it does is to give corporate interests (including family owned ones) the right to pass on private wealth over a longer period of time. Yet if old fiction died out and was replaced by new fiction--that would let creative types take turns introducing their work for public consumption.

  11. #281
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    John Stewart is boring AF and his fans are sad due to clinging to a cartoon that ended 12 years ago

  12. #282
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Do comic strip and comic book characters deserve to exist forever? I think, in general with fiction, the indelible nature of some characters and some writing prevents others from creating new stuff. Because of capitalism, this old stuff stays around for a lot longer than it would if natural forces were at play. It doesn't really profit any one individual for a piece of fiction to exist past the life of the person that created it. The only reason it does is to give corporate interests (including family owned ones) the right to pass on private wealth over a longer period of time. Yet if old fiction died out and was replaced by new fiction--that would let creative types take turns introducing their work for public consumption.
    There are some examples of very popular public-domain franchises (for lack of a better word) around. The strongest example is arguably the Cthulhu mythos. Sherlock Holmes and Dracula are two other examples. Conan is a strange beast, since the character was trademarked, but the original stories themselves are in the public domain.

    In a way, I'd argue that a fully "natural" and organic storytelling naturally gravitates towards the re-use of characters, only with new stories continuously added on. That's the way most mythologies work, and so did the three matters of mediaeval literature. For a storyteller, it can be a great advantage in working with a character that the readers already have an emotional connection with, and a world they already know.

  13. #283
    Extraordinary Member kjn's Avatar
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    The only thing that Batman is the best at in the DCU is paranoia.

  14. #284
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    Bruce Wayne/Clark Kent's Generation needs to be allowed to grow old and die.

    Current Justice League should be made of Dick's generation.

  15. #285
    duke's casettetape lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Golden age thinking and playing to fandom tribalism over synergy are steering DC into a ditch and certain "fans" are contributing to the problem.
    THE SIGNAL (Duke Thomas) is DC's secret shonen protagonist so I made him a fandom wiki

    also, check out "The Signal Tape" a Duke Thomas fan project.

    currently following:
    • DC: Red Hood: The Hill
    • Marvel: TBD
    • Manga (Shonen/Seinen): One Piece, My Hero, Dandadan, Jujutsu Kaisen, Kaiju No. 8, Reincarnation of The Veteran Soldier, Oblivion Rouge, ORDEAL, The Breaker: Eternal Force

    "power does not corrupt, power always reveals."

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