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  1. #1516
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I can't agree with Batgirl and the Boy Wonder being an appropriate equivalency (Bat-Girl would have been an appropriate parallel). They were in completely different places/roles, and different ages (one adult, one child). I think this is really well highlighted by the fact that they quit calling Robin "The Boy Wonder" when he went to college. The name was no longer suitable, and he became "The Teen Wonder" as that was seemingly deemed more fitting/mature/grown than "boy" for someone 18. But Barbara, an adult, is still Batgirl. Then they made newly-adult Steph become one too, even though her own name that she already had had no such age-related language in it. I've no doubt it was because of branding. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

    I don't have a problem with Kara becoming Supergirl - she was still a kid. Even keeping it for while into adulthood from inertia is fine. It's assigning the name to someone already an adult that really bugs me.
    While I generally agree, they're not changing "Robin," but his epithet. It's entirely branding, and the nature of the best is to go with the most marketable title. Batgirl is what's known in the zeitgeist, so that's what will continue. It's not just unique to women. They tried to solve this problem in the '90s with the Legion. Lightning Lad became Livewire. He's Lightning Lad again. Green Lantern was Sentinel for a while, but we know who Alan Scott returned to despite the confusion it causes for new people.

    A lot of names and epithets don't really ring inherently true anymore. Superman is still the Man of Steel when steel isn't held to the same standard it used to be. He was named as such because it was considered an incredibly durable metal but we've got stronger alloys today, yet he's still Man of Steel/Tomorrow (and some argue he's a vestige of yesterday as well). Barry is The Flash, the Fastest Man Alive^TM (not counting Wally, possibly Thawne).

    With Barbara specifically, I wish she stayed Oracle, but you can argue she's Batgirl again strictly because it was stolen from her and she won't let someone else define who she is. She went back to that time in her life and took what she felt was hers. It's not like she retired of her own volition.

    Ultimately, you could argue plot reasons for why these characters who don't really age all that much to begin with want to retain their youthful titles, but it's marketing. These are corporately owned characters and that's the nature of the beast. Not a hill I want to die on.

  2. #1517
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    It's really about keeping the register of the language the same for both sexes or between two different ethnic groups. If you use one register for one group and a different register for the other, then it indicates an imbalance between them, where one is on another level than the other.
    Yeah, that’s the argument people are making about this whole “Karen is still calling herself Power Girl despite being an adult woman” thing.

    It's perfectly okay for an eighty year old woman to have a boyfriend who is a ninety year old man, and she is his girlfriend. In fact, it would be a kind of discrimination based on age if we said they can't be called girlfriend and boyfriend. The terms for each are on the same register of language.
    If the guy was called a “man friend” while the woman was called a girlfriend that would be a problem and would actually have something to do with what is being discussed.

    I still hear sportscasters--especially during the Olympics--referring to men's team and yet ladies' team. Man and lady are two different registers of the language. If they use lady for a female athlete, then by rights they should use gentleman for the male equivalent.
    Once again, you are making a false equivalency. “Lady” indicates that the female person in question is an adult.

    And now you have DC's Super Hero Girls--with clearly full-grown female characters included in the toy line.
    Those iterations of the characters are depicted as young girls not adults.

    As a man, I'm in no position to dictate what women can call themselves. I think it's up to women, speaking with many different voices, to decide what their terms of reference ought to be.
    We are not talking about a real life woman who is choosing to refer to herself as a girl. We are talking about a fictional female character calling herself a girl despite clearly being a woman as the art work all too often likes to remind us.

  3. #1518
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    i enjoy a lot of titles far more than Doomsday Clock this week
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Guardian.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector
    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, Avengers
    Anticipated titles: John Ridley IV's Batman w/Luke Fox, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  4. #1519
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    i enjoy a lot of titles far more than Doomsday Clock this week
    That's a paddlin' if I ever saw one.

    34uws.jpg

  5. #1520
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    i enjoy a lot of titles far more than Doomsday Clock this week
    Doomsday Clock's last issue only benefits the writers who can tell stories with the worlds/ timelines introduced. Fans are the ones left with a broken, contradictory current status quo.

  6. #1521
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    That's a paddlin' if I ever saw one.

    34uws.jpg
    i said what i said, do what you must

    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Guardian.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector
    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, Avengers
    Anticipated titles: John Ridley IV's Batman w/Luke Fox, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  7. #1522
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Superman isn't the "ultimate immigration story", he's barely even an immigration story.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 01-03-2020 at 10:24 AM.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Guardian.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector
    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, Avengers
    Anticipated titles: John Ridley IV's Batman w/Luke Fox, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

  8. #1523
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Superman isn't the "ultimate immigration story", he's barely even an immigration story.
    I tend to agree. He comes young, is adopted by a local family. Fully looks and sounds like like the locals. The vast majority of people who interact with him in everyday life have no idea he isn't a native. And, in the versions I prefer, he doesn't even remember the world he left and only learns about it in adolescence or adulthood, and the culture around him the only one he knows. He's absolutely "one of us" in that sense.

  9. #1524
    Mighty Member 9th.'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Superman isn't the "ultimate immigration story", he's barely even an immigration story.
    Would Martian Manhunter be a better example?
    Reading list: Miles Morales: Spider-Man (Marvel), Ironheart (Marvel), Champions (Marvel), Jessica Jones: Purple Daughter (Marvel), Runaways (Marvel), Young Justice (DC), Naomi (DC), Justice League Odyssey (DC), My Hero Academia (VIZ), Bitter Root (Image), Quincredible (Lionforge), Buffy the Vampire Slayer Reboot (BOOM!)

  10. #1525
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Superman isn't the "ultimate immigration story", he's barely even an immigration story.
    I mean, you could argue writers don't emphasize it enough, but Superman is an immigrant story. He wasn't born here and hails from an alien culture and he has to grapple with both of his heritage's growing up.

    He literally has two names aside from his Superhero name.
    Quote Originally Posted by 9th. View Post
    Would Martian Manhunter be a better example?
    Or Supergirl considering she actually grew up on Krypton.

  11. #1526
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by king81992 View Post
    Doomsday Clock's last issue only benefits the writers who can tell stories with the worlds/ timelines introduced. Fans are the ones left with a broken, contradictory current status quo.
    No matter what they do with it, they'll probably get some aspects of the old continuity wrong. For instance, they'll probably have Earth 1985 Superboy working on the farm even though his family moved into town early in his childhood.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  12. #1527
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    No matter what they do with it, they'll probably get some aspects of the old continuity wrong. For instance, they'll probably have Earth 1985 Superboy working on the farm even though his family moved into town early in his childhood.
    You can make a case that they already sort of have. They had an image with John Stewart with the JLA, but he wasn't a member of that team despite being the active Green Lantern at the time.

  13. #1528
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    You can make a case that they already sort of have. They had an image with John Stewart with the JLA, but he wasn't a member of that team despite being the active Green Lantern at the time.
    I don't think that's supposed to be 'The JLA'... I think it's just 'Earth 1985'. John Stewart wasn't on that league... but I don't actually remember Supergirl or Batgirl being members either and Zatanna had given up the fishnets by that point hadn't she? Mostly the picture doesn't actually label it as the League.

    https://www.themix.net/files/2019/12...bbe647dbd4.jpg

  14. #1529
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    I don't think that's supposed to be 'The JLA'... I think it's just 'Earth 1985'. John Stewart wasn't on that league... but I don't actually remember Supergirl or Batgirl being members either and Zatanna had given up the fishnets by that point hadn't she? Mostly the picture doesn't actually label it as the League.

    https://www.themix.net/files/2019/12...bbe647dbd4.jpg
    Exactly. It’s just a picture of the heroes that were active in 1985. Also, there was no JLA back then either, just JL Detroit.

  15. #1530
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, you could argue writers don't emphasize it enough, but Superman is an immigrant story. He wasn't born here and hails from an alien culture and he has to grapple with both of his heritage's growing up.

    He literally has two names aside from his Superhero name.
    Superman's angle on the immigrant story is a very superficial understanding of the immigrant experience. that's just me coming from my experience both as a child of immigrants and later an immigrant myself. Superman at best is reflective of someone with dual citizenship than the experience of an immigrant. he came h
    to America as a baby, immediately occurred citizenship, then proceeded to live as an "all-American good boy"-type white man in heartland America with god powers. that is not the common immigrant experience or even an allegory for the immigrant experience, especially so in America, and it definitely ain't the type of immigrant story that is culturally relevant in today's day and age. it's hard to relate with the all-powerful god as an immigrant, when is experience is "man, I'm so powerful I should help and protect this country I live in and love" and yours is worrying about the country you "live in and love" kidnapping your kids or starting on your 18th birthday having to take an hour and a half bus commute the next city over to the immigration/border security office bimonthly by yourself for a 5 minute check-in just to not get deported and separated from your family. and look, while not all immigrants have had a rough go of it, it's just hard for me to buy into the "oh he's an immigration story" while simultaneously painting him as this true blue American hero type when you've seen in real-life, on the news, and in my class readings, the history of immigration in America and it just don't match up. I don't think writers should emphasize Superman as an immigrant, in today's climate particularly, it feels like cramming a square peg in a round hole and rings a little disingenuous. if you want an immigrant story, tell it with Bunker, tell it with Vixen, tell it with Katana, David Zavimbe, Kimiyo Hoshi, Kong Kenan, Wonder Woman, hell if you REALLY need a Superman tell it with Hernan Guerra for Gods and Monsters.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
    John Stewart is my Guardian.
    Naomi was great, pass it on...
    DC: Batman and the Outsiders, Justice League, Teen Titans, Suicide Squad, The Flash, Justice League Odyssey, Far Sector
    Marvel: Immortal Hulk, Miles Morales: Spiderman, Black Panther, X-Men (2019), Venom, Avengers
    Anticipated titles: John Ridley IV's Batman w/Luke Fox, Love Army*, The Other History of DC*

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