Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Agent Z]

Yep.

Seen so many whine about "Silver Age nostalgia" eat up completely 90s/DCAU nostalgia without missing a step.

There's barely any 90s/DCAU stuff to tap into any nostalgia. And even then, at least it doesn't involve bulldozing over newer stuff to exist. Hell, DCAU stuff is in elseworlds where it can be ignored.

[Agent Z]

Here is the most blatant evidence that the backlash to I Am Not Starfire was completely unjustified and hypocritical.

In the same year this IANS came out, DC released Gotham City Villains Anniversary. One of the stories in that book had the Penguin in a relationship with Catwoman and pulling off a theft of millions of vaccines and redistributed them around the world. This story was written by Danny DeVito who played the Penguin in the second Tim Burton Batman movie. Funny how no one was accusing him of using the Penguin as a Mary Sue self insert.

[John Venus]

Last time I checked nobody at DC has spent two decades twisting the DCU, undoing decades of character development and literally breaking the universe just to restore some idealized childhood nostaglia version of the DCU based on Post Crisis era and the DCAU. That' all on the Superfriends and Silver Age generation which Johns/Didio comes from, they're responsible for the Nu52 and every mess that followed since. We get Elseworlds and little glimpses of stuff based on Post Crisis stuff, the good parts of the 90's and some AU's that takes pointers from the DCAU but that's about it. People may joke about some vengeful Post Crisis fan taking over DCU but that hasn't happened and I think the window for that kind of thing to happen has passed anyway.

[Stick Figure]

I’m a huge X-Men fan but I don’t know much about the comics from the 70’s & 80’s. Just a simpler type of writing meant for a young audience. I know the basics of stories are pretty good but the way they’re told isn’t for me. So I have no interest in pre-2000 continuity. For me, nostalgia isn’t great for comics. When I pick up a comic that references Crisis from the 80’s, I just check out. No stories should be based around continuity that far back. Keep basic things but that’s all.

[king81992]

Here is the most blatant evidence that the backlash to I Am Not Starfire was completely unjustified and hypocritical.

In the same year this IANS came out, DC released Gotham City Villains Anniversary. One of the stories in that book had the Penguin in a relationship with Catwoman and pulling off a theft of millions of vaccines and redistributed them around the world. This story was written by Danny DeVito who played the Penguin in the second Tim Burton Batman movie. Funny how no one was accusing him of using the Penguin as a Mary Sue self insert.

Is evidence really necessary that the backlash to I Am Not Starfire was total crap? There has, is and unfortunately always will be a certain subset of 'fans' who have issues with any character that isn't white, straight or conventionally attractive.

Mary Sue and self insert are meaningless terms these days, any character someone dislikes gets branded as a 'Mary Sue'.

[Restingvoice]

You know what nevermind

[marhawkman]

Is evidence really necessary that the backlash to I Am Not Starfire was total crap? There has, is and unfortunately always will be a certain subset of 'fans' who have issues with any character that isn't white, straight or conventionally attractive.

Mary Sue and self insert are meaningless terms these days, any character someone dislikes gets branded as a 'Mary Sue'.

As someone who read "I am not Starfire"... I think the book was crap. Because the writer took a fictional setting.. and wrapped it around the story she wrote. She changed multiple aspects of background lore just to setup a fight between the new character and Kommand'r....super-dumb.

[skyvolt2000]

Is evidence really necessary that the backlash to I Am Not Starfire was total crap? There has, is and unfortunately always will be a certain subset of 'fans' who have issues with any character that isn't white, straight or conventionally attractive.

I think that is the group he is talking about. Because that is who threw the fits. Folks who were not interested or not PAID (or given the book for free) to read the book were not trashing it.

Not those of us who read the book and yes it was CRAP.


The issue with that group is they CHERRY PICK who to attack and never read said material.

See Tee Franklin-who some claim self inserted herself in Harley & Ivy's book and Archie's Summer Fun book. The usual suspects went off including well known Gators.

I read the Archie book. That was not her. It may have been in the mold of her but that was not her. And the story was actually nice.

Or the Tim Drake saga. Where folks accuse DC of pandering to Twitter and Tumblr.

[TheCasualReader]

As someone who read "I am not Starfire"... I think the book was crap. Because the writer took a fictional setting.. and wrapped it around the story she wrote. She changed multiple aspects of background lore just to setup a fight between the new character and Kommand'r....super-dumb.

EDIT: I stopped reading just before Blackfire entered the story, so everything below is basically about the first half of the book and takes nothing about the second half into consideration. Even if the second half is great, it doesn't fix the problems with the first half. I didn't finish the book because I honestly wasn't invested enough to pick it back up after I took a break.

There were a few moments that I liked, but I can only recall one of them and, well, that speaks for itself.

For me, the big problem was that the story felt too paint-by-the-numbers. For the most part, it was so interchangeable with the standard "my mom's beautiful/model/celebrity and I'm not" that you wouldn't have to change much if you just wanted to play it straight without the superhero/alien stuff.

Mandy is the daughter of an alien superhero from an alien culture, but she felt so weirdly whitebread, and her relationship with her mom felt so bogstandard - it lacked moments that made me feel invested in this specific relationship between these two specific characters.

I went in with no real expectations and no pre-conceptions about the characters because I'm not a Titans person, so my knowledge of how the characters "should" be is minimal. I love slice of life stories, I love mother-daughter relationships and a superhero-themed slice of life story with a mother-daughter relationship sounds great, so the book looked real promising, but it just felt too bland for me.

It's weird how bland their relationship is considering that Starfire, based on what I know, is a refugee as well as a trauma survivor from an entirely different culture, and she also had to deal with an abusive older sister. This could have been something in the story - and I'm not talking about the second half of the story where Blackfire appears.

That kind of childhood is something that's felt in a family even if it happened in the past. It's also ripe for emotional complexity for Mandy and her mother, especially when Mandy is feeling so frustrated about her mother.

Mandy was raised in both human and alien culture, but it has no "daily" impact on her character, even when she's in a stage of her life where she wants to define her own identity and is struggling to get out from others' expectations. Her looking completely human and having no powers might make her feel disconnected from her Tamaran side, motivating her to commit to the human side because the alien side just reminds her of all her self-perceived inadequacies.

Maybe she had all these hopes and dreams about going flying with her mother like she did with hers or learn flying games from her because they used to talk about it, only for her to never develop the powers. Maybe her mother tried to make her feel better by creating some playful substitute game, but it just wasn't the same.

Maybe Mandy feels that ever since they found out she didn't have powers, her mother doesn't look at her the same way anymore - maybe Starfire's overprotective because Mandy doesn't have powers, maybe she's overly supportive because she doesn't want Mandy to feel less, but it comes across as condescending even when Mandy knows she means well, etc.

Maybe Mandy used to imagine getting her powers and becoming her mother's sidekick. Maybe she used to draw the supercostume she'd wear as a sidekick.

So much could have been done with the story to really use the alien-and-superhero setting, but it feels too run-of-the-mill. And even if you ignore the themed setting, Starfire's history and personality, the relationship between Starfire and Mandy just isn't that interesting and neither is Mandy, which is a problem because those are the two things the book is about.

EDIT: And yeah, there was a ton of crap complaintst that started getting thrown at the book just based on its cover alone.

[marhawkman]

EDIT: I stopped reading just before Blackfire entered the story, so everything below is basically about the first half of the book and takes nothing about the second half into consideration. Even if the second half is great, it doesn't fix the problems with the first half. I didn't finish the book because I honestly wasn't invested enough to pick it back up after I took a break.

There were a few moments that I liked, but I can only recall one of them and, well, that speaks for itself.

For me, the big problem was that the story felt too paint-by-the-numbers. For the most part, it was so interchangeable with the standard "my mom's beautiful/model/celebrity and I'm not" that you wouldn't have to change much if you just wanted to play it straight without the superhero/alien stuff.

At some points Koriand'r felt more like a foster parent than Mandy's mother. The relationship just felt... distant in a way that came across as if they barely knew eeach other sometimes.

Mandy is the daughter of an alien superhero from an alien culture, but she felt so weirdly whitebread, and her relationship with her mom felt so bogstandard - it lacked moments that made me feel invested in this specific relationship between these two specific characters.

also at random moments Mandy acts out Tamaranean cultural things when it doens't make sense.

I went in with no real expectations and no pre-conceptions about the characters because I'm not a Titans person, so my knowledge of how the characters "should" be is minimal. I love slice of life stories, I love mother-daughter relationships and a superhero-themed slice of life story with a mother-daughter relationship sounds great, so the book looked real promising, but it just felt too bland for me.

Yeah it's weird... it's like the writer saw that as an obstacle to the story or something. Seriously, most dysfunctional high school drama ever. Mandy seemingly doesn't even pretend to be a student.

It's weird how bland their relationship is considering that Starfire, based on what I know, is a refugee as well as a trauma survivor from an entirely different culture, and she also had to deal with an abusive older sister. This could have been something in the story - and I'm not talking about the second half of the story where Blackfire appears.

That kind of childhood is something that's felt in a family even if it happened in the past. It's also ripe for emotional complexity for Mandy and her mother, especially when Mandy is feeling so frustrated about her mother.

Yeah, there's a point in the story where Starfire does an exposition dump... on things you'd think would have come up at some point in the previous 18 years.... Like seriously Mandy seemingly didn't know she had an aunt named Kommand'r? Or why Koriand'r left Tamaran?

Mandy was raised in both human and alien culture, but it has no "daily" impact on her character, even when she's in a stage of her life where she wants to define her own identity and is struggling to get out from others' expectations. Her looking completely human and having no powers might make her feel disconnected from her Tamaran side, motivating her to commit to the human side because the alien side just reminds her of all her self-perceived inadequacies.

and also Mandy doesn't seem to understand either culture somehow?

Maybe she had all these hopes and dreams about going flying with her mother like she did with hers or learn flying games from her because they used to talk about it, only for her to never develop the powers. Maybe her mother tried to make her feel better by creating some playful substitute game, but it just wasn't the same.

Yeah, it's clear Mandy wanted to have powers. Part of why she was unhappy was the lack of powers.... the rest... is not explained... like so many other things in the story. Another key detail never revealed... who is Mandy's father? Koriand'r has never told Mandy... Why?

Maybe Mandy feels that ever since they found out she didn't have powers, her mother doesn't look at her the same way anymore - maybe Starfire's overprotective because Mandy doesn't have powers, maybe she's overly supportive because she doesn't want Mandy to feel less, but it comes across as condescending even when Mandy knows she means well, etc.

Yeah the tone of those parts felt off.

Maybe Mandy used to imagine getting her powers and becoming her mother's sidekick. Maybe she used to draw the supercostume she'd wear as a sidekick.

So much could have been done with the story to really use the alien-and-superhero setting, but it feels too run-of-the-mill. And even if you ignore the themed setting, Starfire's history and personality, the relationship between Starfire and Mandy just isn't that interesting and neither is Mandy, which is a problem because those are the two things the book is about.

EDIT: And yeah, there was a ton of crap complaintst that started getting thrown at the book just based on its cover alone.

Yeah, the idea has promise... but... It just feels like a waste of a good idea.

[phonogram12]

Your favorite character doesn't have to be invincible just because they're your favorite character. Mine neither.

[krazijoe]

I have fond memories of Movies, books, comics, superheroes...etc...
My FIRSt glimpse of Captain America was a crappy Made for TV movie in the 70's BUT I loved it.
My FIRST glimpse of Spider-Man was a Crappy 2-3 minute scene on Electric Company. But I loved it!
My FIRST Glimpse of Justice League was Super Friends, TERRIBLE animation and stories, BUT I LOVED IT.
I am not going to talk about the JL live action show. UGH
One of my favorite movies growing up was Escape from New York. Seemed awesome at the time, now, not so much.
It's funny how we all want to evolve as a person but can't let our favorite comics evolve, they need to stay how WE like them and when they don't it's world war 3. Sure I hated A lot of Spier-man from the 90's and early 00's but he is still one of my Favs, even if they have the other crappy spider-men, women, pigs etc...Do I pine for the days when Spider-Man was good? Yup, now it's not written very well at all.
If I had it my way, Barry would be dead because he died like Barry was supposed to, SAVING THE UNIVERSE! AN honorable way to die, just like Green Arrow should be dead, Bats and Superman, not so much. Heck, I LOVE Hal, but I really dug his fall from grace and it made sense. Do I hate the other Lanterns that replaced him? Only Ion, the rest, not at all. Though I do believe that there are too many from Earth and not real fond of Jessica and wish The Ring of Volthoom would come back and take her over again. BUT Characters evolve, Except Ion, Forget him. Sorry, Long story why and it relates to the fact that I can't Stand Winick and that goes back to his Real World Days.
Anyway, we are all here because we love comics and the way they have shaped our lives. Lets try to remember that part of it all.

[Stanlos]

I always wonder whether the DCU continuity began to simply align with the real world debuts/timelines how well received or not it would be.

Obviously no real issues would come up regarding WW, Supes, Cap, or MM. Batman would be a mantle handed down through Generations since he's a dude and not long lived or immortal. But I wonder how that would go down

[TheCasualReader]

The Sandman series should have been an animated series: the comic's better suited for an animated adaptation and honestly, it feels like too many compromises has to be made to translate Sandman into live action (ex. the loss of the black eyes, hair and the unnatural chalk skin)

[Ascended]

I always wonder whether the DCU continuity began to simply align with the real world debuts/timelines how well received or not it would be.

I think it depends a lot on the execution and format.

I don't think fans would accept a main publishing line that said Clark, Bruce, etc., all debuted in the 30's and 40's and the modern day is full of the legacies of their legacies. We wouldn't want that for the "main" canon. But fans might celebrate such a thing if it were a smaller self-contained imprint, like Marvel's old Ultimate line or Vertigo.

I think it might also do very well in a OGN bookstore format, where it could reach a wider audience than the typical Wednesday Warrior who is deeply invested in the ongoing, serialized narrative. Hell, Superman Smashes the Klan wasn't exactly a OGN since it was done as a prestige LCS mini first, but it sold well in trade and won several awards. That seems like exactly the kind of story you'd want to see in a "real time DCU." Might be proof of concept right there.

People do love a good WWII story, and plenty of shows from Yellowstone 1883 to Mad Men are set in various past eras. I see no real reason why a "real time" DCU would fail, as long as it didn't replace the established, ongoing universe and was, of course, well crafted and properly advertised.