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  1. #496
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it was a concerted effort.

    Like, I think Williamson would've liked to have brought Bart back, but Bendis' clout is what got them to bring the Young Justice generation back so Williamson could finally do it.
    I'm pretty sure the literal only reason Bart came back is because Bendis wanted to do YJ and he has a lot of pull. After that it was just deciding about how to do it, so it was clearly tacked on at the end of Flash War as a convenient place for it. It also explains why, despite having just come back, Bart was in no comics for like half a year -- they had the vehicle, but didn't have YJ ready to go yet so Bart just kind of sat around doing nothing for awhile.

    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    We are screaming at each other over What Doesn't Matter (which is kind of all the internet in one thread). DC could easily fix this with an Earth 2 that examines what Now+20 years looks like. For all its faults, M2 is viable model, more for DC than Marvel (ironically).
    The problem with any Earth 2 concept is it'll be one, maybe two comics that won't ever be able to explore any characters outside of a team setting or whoever is the Batman because they're possibly like to get a book called "Batman: Earth 2." You don't get to deal with any of the transition, you just plop in a timeskip and you're reading a book that is somehow even less relevant than the Titans and future generations already are, because now their wheels aren't even spinning in the relevant universe.

    One of the utmost problems with the stagnation is page count. You don't fix that by adding another universe and more comics. Not to mention that the core universe would still be just that, the core universe. Events would run through it, major writers would be dedicated to it. It'd literally synonymous with being second tier because it's Earth 2. You get nothing of anything we're talking about. And I know you could call it something besides Earth 2, but whatever name you give it will set it apart as secondary to Earth Prime/Zero. A bunch of characters who still live in the shadow of their predecessors in the real universe.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-31-2019 at 09:11 PM.

  2. #497
    Unstoppable Member KC's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    The Rogues we're reading now weren't even defined by Barry's run! They were invented there, but their characterizations (with the exception of Scudder and Glider, I'll grant you, since Morrison and Waid replaced Scudder with McCulloch) were created by Johns. Thawne's modern characterization that we all know and love, the impetus and obsession with Barry, was made by Waid. Before that he just hated Barry for messing up his schemes. It's like saying Wally's run is based on Barry because Wally debuted in Barry's comic. Yes, that's true, but the actual content and mythos and characterization stem from Wally's time as The Flash with Waid and Johns writing them. . Reporter Girlfriend is Superman, and comparing Linda to Iris is a huge disservice.

    Barry did not have twin children until Wally West's run, when Waid retconned the Tornado Twins to being Iris and Barry's children. The "Twin children run in the family" thing started with Waid. Cobalt Blue (ugh, I know, but still) and Barry? Waid. Tornado Twins being Barry's kids? Waid. Wally's kids being twins? Waid (though Waid's imagination of them was changed later by Johns -- Waid had Iris West II and Barry West, Johns came up with Jai). Before that they were long distant descendants who showed up for a single LOSH -- they weren't even Flash characters until Wally's run in an arc called Race Against Time.
    The characterization for most of the Rogues from Johns' was fundamentally the same as the characterization for most of the Rogues pre-Crisis. The only Rogue Johns changed in any sort of meaningful way is Captain Cold. The bedrock of Wally's Mythos comes from Barry's mythos.

  3. #498
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    Wait 20 years and we will see if you have the same opinion when Bruce is younger than you are.

    Lack of progression robs any story of risk and enjoyment. It is not a good story. I’ll give that it can be entertaining, but spongebob is entertaining. I’d like to think Batman is worth more thought and story telling than mindless humor.
    I'm sure I will.

    Progression does not just mean characters growing older and then characters replacing them. Characters can still progress when time is slowed down. Characters are still progressing as time is slowed down as parts of the universe are created and expanded upon. Stakes are still created in the stories being told. Good stories can and are being told like this.

    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    Also I think people are misunderstanding the argument.

    I don’t think dred is arguing that an intentional push to force the “iconic generation” our should happen. Rather we are arguing for change that matters. That those characters do grow old and change. The argument is not “kill Bruce tomorrow”

    The argument is let’s see Bruce at 40...50...and dicks generation slowly taking over. Let natural progression happen.
    I think everyone understands that. But not everyone wants that to happen. And that's ok.

  4. #499
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    The characterization for most of the Rogues from Johns' was fundamentally the same as the characterization for most of the Rogues pre-Crisis. The only Rogue Johns changed in any sort of meaningful way is Captain Cold. The bedrock of Wally's Mythos comes from Barry's mythos.
    No it wasn't. Johns reinvented all the core Rogues and all their motivations in his run, with the previously stated exceptions of Glider(she was dead, the Chillblaine thing) and Scudder (definitely dead, repplaced by McCulloch). That's why his run is good. It is the primary thing he did as a writer for The Flash. Reinventing and putting deep character focus on the likes of Cold and Heatwave and Weather Wizard (and all of Wally's many original villains) is what made his run so standout. Rory's entire backstory, compulsion, and his attempts and failures at coming clean are all Johns' handiwork. Johns dedicated a full blown arc to fleshing out Weather Wizard who had nothing but a pomp personality in Barry's days. The Top was given a complete overhaul in The Secret of Barry Allen. He CREATED Axel Walker, who is still the Trickster since Barry came back. JUST Cold? Are you kidding me? Please, do tell me how Bates or Kanigher or Fox or Broome defined Axel Walker. Tell me the issue where Weather Wizard's emotions directly tied to the weather in the good ol days. You already admit to Cold, but please give me the tragic backstory and mental sickness that defines Rory Calhoun in a comic from the last millennium. I can't see how you could have read SA/BA era Flash and have this opinion without trying to intentionally mislead someone. Thawne barely got any characterization, much less The Rogues.

    One of the major weaknesses of the Silver and Bronze Age was little to no work dedicated in personifying and developing the motives of villains. Unless you think literally the only thing that matters are names and powers, The Rogues as we know them were created by Geoff Johns during Wally's run. And if you do think names and powers are the most important thing, boy do I have a previous argument to touch back with you on.

    That you can even pretend this is the case is absurd. Bedrock? The Rogues weren't even relevant for the best part of Wally's run. They made very few significant appearances over the course of 162 issues. And yet still, what they became and what they are to this day, in Barry's comic, is defined by what Johns wrote in those 65 issues.

    edit: holy crap, not to mention my favorite Rogue, PIED PIPER. Completely redefined by William-Messner Loebs and Waid. And please, if you can show me a BA or SA writer who included a gay friend to The Flash who was his former enemy and Rogue, I'll give you a standing ovation. Double points if it's Pied Piper! He's importantly Wally defined, too, because of the fact that Piper didn't like Barry's hardline treatment of criminals and Wally's attempts at and acceptance of villain reformation (very important to WML's run) is what made him feel comfortable coming out and developing a friendship with Wally!

    Guess who's Barry's gay bud in his comics instead of Wally's despite this super important distinction in runs, rogues, and relationships?

    I honestly have no clue how you came away with this observation.
    Last edited by Dred; 01-31-2019 at 10:51 PM.

  5. #500
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    I'm pretty sure the literal only reason Bart came back is because Bendis wanted to do YJ and he has a lot of pull. After that it was just deciding about how to do it, so it was clearly tacked on at the end of Flash War as a convenient place for it. It also explains why, despite having just come back, Bart was in no comics for like half a year -- they had the vehicle, but didn't have YJ ready to go yet so Bart just kind of sat around doing nothing for awhile.
    Yeah, Bendis' efforts was what let DC allow Bart back and then Williamson got to be the one to do it in the pages of The Flash .

    I don't know if I'd go with "Tacked on" since I think Bart's return at the end was a fitting way to cap of "Flash War."

  6. #501
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Yeah, Bendis' efforts was what let DC allow Bart back and then Williamson got to be the one to do it in the pages of The Flash .

    I don't know if I'd go with "Tacked on" since I think Bart's return at the end was a fitting way to cap of "Flash War."
    I say tacked on because it was completely isolated from the comic it was in. Bart returned and talked to and interacted with absolutely nothing in the comic. The only thing he did WAS return. And then obviously didn't show up in the comic later.

  7. #502
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    Also I think people are misunderstanding the argument.

    I don’t think dred is arguing that an intentional push to force the “iconic generation” our should happen. Rather we are arguing for change that matters. That those characters do grow old and change. The argument is not “kill Bruce tomorrow”

    The argument is let’s see Bruce at 40...50...and dicks generation slowly taking over. Let natural progression happen.
    I just realized this argument is over whether or not comics should progress like manga.

  8. #503
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    Quote Originally Posted by Deku View Post
    I'm sure I will.

    Progression does not just mean characters growing older and then characters replacing them. Characters can still progress when time is slowed down. Characters are still progressing as time is slowed down as parts of the universe are created and expanded upon. Stakes are still created in the stories being told. Good stories can and are being told like.
    I agree that good stories can be told even when time is slowed. That's not something rational people would disagree with. The problem, and this somewhat unique to DC, is when the story continues for decades and always returns to the status quo. Any change is an illusion. It's not real. It breaks the suspension of disbelief for the reader. It reminds you that you are not actually in this fictional world. This awareness caused by the story is bad story telling.

    Any "changes" bruce has experienced over the past ten years are an illusion. IF Bruce had married Selina and that story had become a permanent part of his character, I would concede the argument. But he didn't. It was a return to status-quo. The truth is I can leave Batman issues for ten years, come back, and nothing will have changed. That's not good story telling.

    The N52 destroyed so much growth for these characters. They were finally moving forward. I don't buy Batman comics anymore because there is zero reason to be invested.

    Snyder's run doesn't matter.
    King's run doesn't matter.

    It will all return to the status quo in a few years.

    That's bad storytelling.

  9. #504
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverWarriorWolf View Post
    I just realized this argument is over whether or not comics should progress like manga.
    Basically...yes. Though I would remove time skips and wouldn't have it move forward so fast.

  10. #505
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    Another controversial opinion:

    Young Justice (the tv series) is only a good story for people who are familiar DC comics. It's a bad story with numerous plot holes and plot threads that are never resolved.

  11. #506
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    I agree that good stories can be told even when time is slowed. That's not something rational people would disagree with. The problem, and this somewhat unique to DC, is when the story continues for decades and always returns to the status quo. Any change is an illusion. It's not real. It breaks the suspension of disbelief for the reader. It reminds you that you are not actually in this fictional world. This awareness caused by the story is bad story telling.

    Any "changes" bruce has experienced over the past ten years are an illusion. IF Bruce had married Selina and that story had become a permanent part of his character, I would concede the argument. But he didn't. It was a return to status-quo. The truth is I can leave Batman issues for ten years, come back, and nothing will have changed. That's not good story telling.

    The N52 destroyed so much growth for these characters. They were finally moving forward. I don't buy Batman comics anymore because there is zero reason to be invested.

    Snyder's run doesn't matter.
    King's run doesn't matter.

    It will all return to the status quo in a few years.

    That's bad storytelling.
    DC does still change its universe. Sometimes in small ways, sometimes in larger ways, but the universe is still changing. It might break your suspension of disbelief, but for many readers, it doesn't.

    That's not really true, there are a lot of characters who have changed over the last 10 years and will change still over the next 10 years.

  12. #507
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SilverWarriorWolf View Post
    I just realized this argument is over whether or not comics should progress like manga.
    I've seen that argument before but I think the difference with comics and manga is that the creative process is so different with the shifting creative teams, shared universe aspect, and the different way editorial is involved in for comics compared to manga.

    And, on a personal level, I love Jojo's Bizarre Adventures but I don't need the comics I read to have to change the main character every so often.
    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    Snyder's run doesn't matter.
    King's run doesn't matter.

    It will all return to the status quo in a few years.

    That's bad storytelling.
    But for those who aren't in love with Snyder or King's take, I can see the upside that the stuff they didn't like will eventually be overturned and the next writer may be someone who's more to their speed.

    I understand the desire for progression and development even if I also think a "return to status quo" is sometimes needed in some cases.
    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    Another controversial opinion:

    Young Justice (the tv series) is only a good story for people who are familiar DC comics. It's a bad story with numerous plot holes and plot threads that are never resolved.
    I think it's definitely easier to get into Young Justice if you have some familiarity with the DC Universe.

  13. #508
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    Quote Originally Posted by josai21 View Post
    I agree that good stories can be told even when time is slowed. That's not something rational people would disagree with. The problem, and this somewhat unique to DC, is when the story continues for decades and always returns to the status quo. Any change is an illusion. It's not real. It breaks the suspension of disbelief for the reader. It reminds you that you are not actually in this fictional world. This awareness caused by the story is bad story telling.

    Any "changes" bruce has experienced over the past ten years are an illusion. IF Bruce had married Selina and that story had become a permanent part of his character, I would concede the argument. But he didn't. It was a return to status-quo. The truth is I can leave Batman issues for ten years, come back, and nothing will have changed. That's not good story telling.

    The N52 destroyed so much growth for these characters. They were finally moving forward. I don't buy Batman comics anymore because there is zero reason to be invested.

    Snyder's run doesn't matter.
    King's run doesn't matter.

    It will all return to the status quo in a few years.

    That's bad storytelling.
    Just to touch on this as a beautiful full circle, the last major status quo change in Batman that has and will continue to stick for the forseeable future is...Damian Wayne Robin. A change that was ushered in because Dick was a different kind of Batman which necessitated growth and change not just in Batman, but in the world around him.

    Amazing how that happened.

  14. #509
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dred View Post
    Just to touch on this as a beautiful full circle, the last major status quo change in Batman that has and will continue to stick for the forseeable future is...Damian Wayne Robin. A change that was ushered in because Dick was a different kind of Batman which necessitated growth and change not just in Batman, but in the world around him.

    Amazing how that happened.
    I think it helped that the concept of Batman's biological son as Robin was very palpable and Damian really grew on people under Morrison and Tomasi's pen (and, to a lesser extent, Bryan Q. Miller).

    (Still kind of screwed Tim over though).

  15. #510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I think it helped that the concept of Batman's biological son as Robin was very palpable and Damian really grew on people under Morrison and Tomasi's pen (and, to a lesser extent, Bryan Q. Miller).

    (Still kind of screwed Tim over though).
    Damian is Damian because Dick is Dick. Morrison made that clear as day. There's a reason Damian is so absent in Batman with Bruce -- they don't work that great together because they're so alike.

    Maybe we would've eventually gotten Batman's son as Robin, but Damian as a character is not coincidental.
    Last edited by Dred; 02-01-2019 at 12:50 PM.

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