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  1. #4786
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    No. No, no, no. She's a villain and has no regard/respect for his moral values. And even besides that, she was a woman who didn't want to take "no" for an answer from a potential lover (not a good trait in a character of either sex) and because of her absolute obsession with bedding him and bearing his young even before she meets him, she's a horrible love interest to me in that it's just creepy. It's like someone falling in love with their stalker.

    Mind you, I don't care for cosmic adventures for Superman, anyway - I like him earth-based.
    Again, I understand the point of view, but just because Maxima can be a less-than-great person doesn't make her a bad love interest for the purpose of story. As I mentioned, she offers variety. Not every story has to feature totally wholesome and healthy relationships and characters, plus it shows that there is lots of room for characters to grow, which some readers would like to see. In Japanese anime and manga, the difficult and/or crazy woman appeal has developed into its own sort of category of characters with things like yandere and tsundere. So, there is an appeal to that sort of thing, depending on reader preferences...and of course, if the stories are good and convincing.

  2. #4787

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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    There are plenty of other ways to create a villain that can't be beaten through sheer force alone that don't require said villain lusting after the hero.
    What's wrong with a little lust? Don't be a prude, dude.

  3. #4788
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    No. No, no, no. She's a villain and has no regard/respect for his moral values. And even besides that, she was a woman who didn't want to take "no" for an answer from a potential lover (not a good trait in a character of either sex) and because of her absolute obsession with bedding him and bearing his young even before she meets him, she's a horrible love interest to me in that it's just creepy. It's like someone falling in love with their stalker.
    If your first statement was actually true... the character would be far less interesting. Maxima's overall goal is actually an admirable one: to ensure her planet's future is a stable one and the people of Almerac have happy lives.

    As for part two.... Maxima's search for the perfect husband required her to choose a man she WANTED to make king of Almerac. Not just a fling to father a child, but to actually BE her husband. Which is where Superman had reason to actually think about her request. It's a marriage proposal, not just wanting to sleep with him.

    And yeah, she ended up acting as a hero more than once. Such as helping fight Doomsday... the FIRST time Superman fought the monster. Then later getting exploded saving Earth from Brainiac.

  4. #4789
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    There's a ton of potential for Maxima, and I've got a pitch for them, but the fact of the matter is that DC really didn't do much with either and while the potential is there, DC doesn't know how to use it.

    Not every character in space need follow our specific moral compass or ideals. It's fine if alien empires with different ideals exist.

    I don't think anyone thinks Maxima was supposed to be a good and moral character they should get ideas of femininity from.

    I've shared my thoughts in greater detail in her own thread, but ultimately Max is a very complicated, messy woman. That can be compelling to read without condoning her views. That's kind of the point.

    There's this weird obsession that leads to worse characters in which they all need to be sympathetic and viewed as good by some margin. It's why Harley has become kind of a quagmire for other characters because DC wants her to be able to play either side.

    Maxima, I'd argue, has never really worked on the printed page. Either of them.

    But I think there was more to the OG. The new version kind of obliterated Almerac creatively because it's such a shallow culture that a revelation about the origin of the world/empire was enough to pretty much instantly undo eons of tradition and culture; i.e., the entire planet has no fervent beliefs. She was just used to talk about being gay, but in a way that's not really good for more than one story. It scorched Earth, so to speak. The entire planet was constructed to be homophobic so that when they learn their creation myth was actually about a gay couple, they'd see the errors of their ways and be cool.

    Because people are very trusting of revelations undoing thousands of years of perception, i.e., Caucasian Jesus. lol

    But Almerac /does/ begin changing on revelation because it was only ever intended to be in that one story post-Flashpoint.

    For good or ill, I think both can be brought together to tell a pretty engaging story. But it wouldn't and shouldn't be comfortable. That's kind of missing the point of any story starring a villain or anti-hero, and OG Maxima doesn't neatly fit into either category.

    Vordan, I also agree that "Maxima" should be a title, but one that gets amended with an accomplishment or great shame as the rulers legacy once her time is done so that at any point there can only be one "Maxima."

    Example: Current Maxima is simply "Maxima," whereas her mother would be remembered as "Maxima, the Redeemer" and a possible number if there are others like her predating.

    I think there's potential for them as a mother-daughter combo, but we can't be so precious with either of them.
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  5. #4790
    Ultimate Member Jackalope89's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proto Man View Post
    Again, I understand the point of view, but just because Maxima can be a less-than-great person doesn't make her a bad love interest for the purpose of story. As I mentioned, she offers variety. Not every story has to feature totally wholesome and healthy relationships and characters, plus it shows that there is lots of room for characters to grow, which some readers would like to see. In Japanese anime and manga, the difficult and/or crazy woman appeal has developed into its own sort of category of characters with things like yandere and tsundere. So, there is an appeal to that sort of thing, depending on reader preferences...and of course, if the stories are good and convincing.
    Oof. Yandere goes well beyond tsundere and simple jealousy. In fact there's series where the obsession goes the murderous route, and no isn't an option because the "love interest" is tied up with their mouth taped over while anyone that so much as said "hi" to them is probably dead at their feet in a gruesome manner. Nothing I've seen from Maxima goes that far.
    Tsundere, well, there are a lot of variances on it. Some are loathed (Familiar of Zero being one of the biggest perps at bad tsunderes), others aren't because they don't go the violent route, and try to improve their attitude.

    Maxima is no tsundere. The closest would be one of those snooty rich girls looking for "mr. right". But most of those tend to also be prudes (with a few exceptions here and there).

  6. #4791
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    Quote Originally Posted by Timber Wolf-By-Night View Post
    What's wrong with a little lust? Don't be a prude, dude.
    Prudishness has nothing to do with it. If I were a prude, I'd never read of watch anything with remotely adult content.

  7. #4792
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jackalope89 View Post
    Oof. Yandere goes well beyond tsundere and simple jealousy. In fact there's series where the obsession goes the murderous route, and no isn't an option because the "love interest" is tied up with their mouth taped over while anyone that so much as said "hi" to them is probably dead at their feet in a gruesome manner. Nothing I've seen from Maxima goes that far.
    Tsundere, well, there are a lot of variances on it. Some are loathed (Familiar of Zero being one of the biggest perps at bad tsunderes), others aren't because they don't go the violent route, and try to improve their attitude.

    Maxima is no tsundere. The closest would be one of those snooty rich girls looking for "mr. right". But most of those tend to also be prudes (with a few exceptions here and there).
    The point I was making is that not every relationship in fiction needs to be a healthy one to make it good or entertaining. Some people want to read about extreme and/or toxic characters. Because, again, it's fantasy. I don't think I would base whether a character is a good love interest on whether they are a healthy partner for the character they are attached to, not that there's anything wrong with using that as a barometer, but it's just not something everyone will use or value the same. I'm more concerned with whether they are an interesting character themselves and if the story is delivered well, and if the interactions are interesting and entertaining.

    Or I would say, I would take that into consideration some, but it's not the only thing I would consider. And I really don't know how much space it would take up on the pie chart. It would have to depend on how good some of the other aspects are, I guess.
    Last edited by Proto Man; 12-10-2022 at 03:56 AM.

  8. #4793
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    Quote Originally Posted by bat22 View Post
    A character as old as Superman is going to accumulate a number of love interests, although one as relatively young as Maxima still stood out with her looks, powers, background, and moral alignment (her appearances in multiple media are testament to that). She had also broken away from her Superman fixation until Supes' creative team regressed her.
    Maxima wasn't a love interest. That would imply Superman was attracted to her, which isn't the case. She was just one of several women who was attracted to him but he had no interest in her.

    I don't think her appearances in multiple media aren't much to brag about either. The Superboy show and DCAU Superman series are the only ones that even have her getting over Superman and that's because she finds someone else to obsess over. Her appearance in Smallville defines her entirely by her obsession with Superman while also changing her power set and having no exploration of Almerac. Supergirl just depicts her as muscle for other villains. Her appearances in the Superhero Girls shows don't amount to much either.

    As I said, there are interesting elements to Maxima and her fans here have pointed them out. But most writers don't seem interested in them.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 12-10-2022 at 07:22 AM.

  9. #4794
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proto Man View Post
    Again, I understand the point of view, but just because Maxima can be a less-than-great person doesn't make her a bad love interest for the purpose of story. As I mentioned, she offers variety. Not every story has to feature totally wholesome and healthy relationships and characters, plus it shows that there is lots of room for characters to grow, which some readers would like to see. In Japanese anime and manga, the difficult and/or crazy woman appeal has developed into its own sort of category of characters with things like yandere and tsundere. So, there is an appeal to that sort of thing, depending on reader preferences...and of course, if the stories are good and convincing.
    Having a bad or less than moral person as a love interest in and of itself isn't a problem, but it actually has to make sense for the character and story involved. But Maxima was never a love interest and the Superman writers made it clear he had no attraction to her. Superman doesn't really need a Catwoman type of character.

  10. #4795
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Having a bad or less than moral person as a love interest in and of itself isn't a problem, but it actually has to make sense for the character and story involved. But Maxima was never a love interest and the Superman writers made it clear he had no attraction to her.
    I mean, I'm not sure I would say that...



    Superman doesn't really need a Catwoman type of character.
    By the same token, he doesn't necessarily not need one.

  11. #4796

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    The Big 7 aren't a draw for me. They work more as supporting players in someone else's story. I prefer the legacies and the side characters getting the spotlight. But legacies work more outside of comics because they aren't stuck in comic book time. Legacies need a universe that can move forward than one that is static.

    I didn't mind Titans Earth One saving the legacies for down the road. Using Jericho instead of Dick was a smart move and I'd do more like that. Although doing a story where Titans are formed without meeting their mentors is interesting.
    Last edited by the illustrious mr. kenway; 12-10-2022 at 08:49 AM.

  12. #4797
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    Quote Originally Posted by Proto Man View Post
    I mean, I'm not sure I would say that...





    By the same token, he doesn't necessarily not need one.
    I personally wouldn't an Elseworld where Superman only chooses her due to grief over Lois dying.

  13. #4798
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    If your first statement was actually true... the character would be far less interesting. Maxima's overall goal is actually an admirable one: to ensure her planet's future is a stable one and the people of Almerac have happy lives.

    As for part two.... Maxima's search for the perfect husband required her to choose a man she WANTED to make king of Almerac. Not just a fling to father a child, but to actually BE her husband. Which is where Superman had reason to actually think about her request. It's a marriage proposal, not just wanting to sleep with him.

    And yeah, she ended up acting as a hero more than once. Such as helping fight Doomsday... the FIRST time Superman fought the monster. Then later getting exploded saving Earth from Brainiac.
    I really hated big events like OWAW that tried to be "real" with the gravity. You could count on the B or C list characters to get screwed without Supes giving up anything significant.

    I think Maxima offers a lot with regard to her codes and sense of morality related to her upbringing. All the "civilization" first-world countries take for granted came about through right of might in their not-so-distant histories. While villainous at times, Maxima was brought up in a warrior and Mendelian culture, spurned by Eradicator Supes as a barbarian...


  14. #4799
    Ultimate Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    For good or ill, I think both can be brought together to tell a pretty engaging story. But it wouldn't and shouldn't be comfortable. That's kind of missing the point of any story starring a villain or anti-hero, and OG Maxima doesn't neatly fit into either category.
    Best term I've seen is "non-villainous antagonist". In Maxima's case she's more neutral than good, but not actually evil.

    It's a similar vibe with Amanda Waller. She has a vague goal that's good, but... Her goals are... not aligned with those of the heroes.

  15. #4800
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    Quote Originally Posted by the illustrious mr. kenway View Post
    The Big 7 aren't a draw for me…I prefer the legacies and the side characters getting the spotlight.
    I feel the same way
    "It's not my Kate." - Greg Rucka

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