Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[I'm a Fish]

Superman has always been depicted as having “Standoffish” tendencies. Who in their right mind discovers they have a cousin and then decides to ship her off to an orphanage? Who is that cruel to the woman they supposedly love? His base is called the fortress of solitude. All the elements of depicting Superman as a loner have been around since the silver age. I’ve always said...

Batman is the family man that pretends to be a loner, while Superman is the loner everyone thinks is a family man.

Reminds me of the Brave and the Bold episode when Superman got infected with red kryptonite and turned into Silver Age Superman.

11/10 episode.

[king81992]

They absolutely do. But some of his fans are also guilty of it, mainly as an overreaction to what they feel is a decline of Superman since The Dark Knight Returns.

You can see a lot of this in certain criticisms against his depictions in post-crisis, DCAU, Smallville, Rebirth, CW Supergirl, Young Justice and even the DCEU.

DCAU Superman went through a lot, which is why he (rightly) became a bit jaded. The only issue I had was him getting turned into a meat puppet by Starro for years, but Batman Beyond isn't called bad end beyond without a reason.

Smallville Superman was a kid growing into his own, he's not going to be the Man of Steel most people are familiar with.

Rebirth Superman gets bashed because New 52 Superman got shafted.

90% of the time, CW Superman is competent, unless things have changed in his show. Supergirl was branded as 'too woke' by a certain subset of fans, they'd have a problem with any character connected to the series.

YJ Superman barely gets focus and he was right to be uncomfortable around Connor, considering the circumstances of his creation. Their relationship has improved a great deal, but YJ should've shown us how that happened onscreen.

The less said about DCEU Superman, the better.

[SiegePerilous02]

The less said about DCEU Superman, the better.

Lol it was even a subset of DCEU Superman fans who came up with the "Supercuck" label for CW Supes.

[Frontier]

90% of the time, CW Superman is competent, unless things have changed in his show. Supergirl was branded as 'too woke' by a certain subset of fans, they'd have a problem with any character connected to the series.

Competent, yeah, but I think there's something to the criticism that the writers of Supergirl made him into too much of a cheerleader for Kara and that only really changed when he got his own show.

[king81992]

Lol it was even a subset of DCEU Superman fans who came up with the "Supercuck" label for CW Supes.

The label says everything about those clowns.

[Agent Z]

The DCEU fandom was by no means perfect, that I won't deny. But many of the things said by its critics reveal equally dumb or disturbing opinions. Like how many seemed to feel so much sympathy for the sexually harassing trucker for getting his truck destroyed. Or the comments about the DCEU version being "cucked" because of the Lois/Bruce relationship (which never got past the drawing board stage anyway).

I also recall plenty of people who disliked Snyder's Superman also turning on the CW version when he lost one fight to Kara which they still complain about.

The New 52 was actually when I started to really notice this issue within the Superman fandom with several comments mocking post crisis Superman's masculinity or defending sexist comments fromwritersand editors about both Lois and Wonder Woman. One poster even went as far as mocking post crisis Superman for seeing a therapist (if you want to know how stuff like Heroes in Crisis still gets made, remember that it isn't just the writers who have such outdated views on therapy).

[Agent Z]

Competent, yeah, but I think there's something to the criticism that the writers of Supergirl made him into too much of a cheerleader for Kara and that only really changed when he got his own show.

They wrote him as supportive of his young cousin. Nothing more.

[John Venus]

DCAU Superman went through a lot, which is why he (rightly) became a bit jaded. The only issue I had was him getting turned into a meat puppet by Starro for years, but Batman Beyond isn't called bad end beyond without a reason.

As I recall even Timm said that mind controlled for years part bugged them. Thankfully Clark was in his Superman Beyond suit when Starro latched onto him and but by the creators own admission, Starro had him for 2-3 years max.

They talk about it in these two vids:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fp6TL014WaY

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v7IzpNrrn8

YJ Superman barely gets focus and he was right to be uncomfortable around Connor, considering the circumstances of his creation. Their relationship has improved a great deal, but YJ should've shown us how that happened onscreen.

Honestly, that part bugged me. You think Ma Kent would have hit him over the head with a kryptonite frying pan for treating Connor like that in the first season.

I can see Clark being, maybe initially hesitant at first but coming around to it eventually. Superman is one of those guys who seeks to do the right think in every situation. Supergirl literally crash lands into his life in almost every incarnation and he accepts her without hesitation and it makes sense because Ma and Pa Kent accepted him without question when he arrived in their lives thus setting an example. Pre Nu52 he even took in Zod's son and in the JL Beyond 2.0 comics he even adopted a kid named 'Zod'.

You have try much harder to justify why Clark wouldn't accept someone as opposed to just being outright welcoming. He doesn't need a pep talk from Batman to be the latter.

[Agent Z]

Honestly, that part bugged me. You think Ma Kent would have hit him over the head with a kryptonite frying pan for treating Connor like that in the first season.

I can see Clark being, maybe initially hesitant at first but coming around to it eventually. Superman is one of those guys who seeks to do the right think in every situation. Supergirl literally crash lands into his life in almost every incarnation and he accepts her without hesitation and it makes sense because Ma and Pa Kent accepted him without question when he arrived in their lives thus setting an example. Pre Nu52 he even took in Zod's son and in the JL Beyond 2.0 comics he even adopted a kid named 'Zod'.

You have try much harder to justify why Clark wouldn't accept someone as opposed to just being outright welcoming. He doesn't need a pep talk from Batman to be the latter.

There is a significant difference between your cousin who is the only biological family you have left and a clone created by one of your enemies without your knowledge or consent for the purposes of killing you. If Ma Kent didn't understand that, she'd be the one in the wrong not Clark. And the "pep talk" from Batman had nothing to do with Clark accepting Connor anyway.

[John Venus]

You think Clark wouldn't have accepted Kara if she wasn't family or kryptonian?

And it's not Connor's fault that he was a product of CADMUS. He can't pick his family and if Clark didn't somehow realize that at first then Lois, Johnathan or Martha would have clued him in.

Even if Clark was initially reluctant he is someone who always strives to do the right thing and should have come around to accepting Connor much sooner.

Superman does have flaws but it should be something that comes out naturally and not grafted onto him for the sake of drama and conflict. And it's certainly not something that should have gotten resolved off screen.

[Robanker]

Bruce should be a better father/mentor figure than Clark at least to start. It's an interesting contrast, Superman is outwardly friendly and bright but is actually more introverted and doesn't have the experience or desire to really raise someone like Kara when she quite literally falls out of the sky. Bruce is on the surface harder and more aloof, but he takes more naturally to the father figure/older brother figure role. Bruce doesn't let his walls down around a lot of people, but when he does he should do it more easily than Clark.

Once we get to the stage of Clark and Lois getting closer and getting married with a family, he should evolve more naturally into being a good father because he's more ready. So he and Bruce should be more or less on the same level as flawed but well meaning and overall good parents. But Bruce has been written as so horrifically OOC as the worst mentor ever for so long that now people think it is natural for him to be that way. I can't blame them considering the **** they've published, but Bruce being a bad father will never not be inherently wrong to me.

Bruce being a deceitful ******* to his friends and family will always be the wrong take. As a single dad, he would probably follow the trajectory of the dad in "Kramer vs Kramer;" **** at first but would get it together because he genuinely cares.


While I'm at it...

Bruce Wayne didn't "die" in the alley. He is and always has been in the driver's seat. Without the Bruce persona/identity, Alfred is just the butler. The Waynes are just a mugging gone bad. He would not be especially protective of children more than any other adult. He wouldn't be so traumatized against guns.

Literally all the hallmarks of his identity are qualities that only resonate with Bruce Wayne still being the dominant identity in his mind that requires emotional agency to actually compel him to continue his mission. If he truly let that persona abd identity die all those years ago, it wouldn't continue to influence who he is twenty years later. I cringe really hard whenever I read Wonder Woman Year One and he insists he's Batman. It just reads like he's trying too hard to buy into his own myth because he hasn't unpacked what happened to him after two decades of living with it and meditation.

Bruce was a more compelling, textured character when writers and fans weren't trying to convince everyone that he's totes badass, and he's only become the most shallow member of the Trinity because of it. He's a kiddie pool with a cavernous depth painted on the bottom to look complex but utterly disappointing in actuality.

I miss when that wasn't the case.

[Agent Z]

You think Clark wouldn't have accepted Kara if she wasn't family or kryptonian?

No, I do not think that. However, we cannot divorce Clark's reaction from the circumstances under which he met Connor. Superman has his limits.

And it's not Connor's fault that he was a product of CADMUS. He can't pick his family and if Clark didn't somehow realize that at first then Lois, Johnathan or Martha would have clued him in.

Clark also can't help it if he feels violated and uncomfortable around Connor because of how the latter was created. Anyone would react this way. Bruce, Lois, Jonathan and Martha aren't really in a position to judge because it wasn't their DNA that was abused. I'm fairly certain their reactions to being cloned without their consent would be very similar to Clark's.

Even if Clark was initially reluctant he is someone who always strives to do the right thing and should have come around to accepting Connor much sooner.

I disagree. And frankly, I don't think Clark was doing the wrong thing by not treating Connor as his son. For one thing, Connor isn't Clark's son no matter how much people insist he is. And remember that for most of Connor's comic history, he and Clark wanted nothing to do with each other. YJ Clark also left Connor in the care of Red Tornado and Black Canary which certainly beats leaving a money grabbing agent in charge of Connor's car like in the comics.

Superman does have flaws but it should be something that comes out naturally and not grafted onto him for the sake of drama and conflict.

I don't see it as unnatural. As I said, Clark ignored Connor for most of their comic history.

And it's certainly not something that should have gotten resolved off screen.

Well they did show the beginnings of it in the season 1 finale. Perhaps they could have shown more of it but it didn't just come out of nowhere.

[witchboy]

I thought Clark's reaction to Conner in YJ was very normal and understandable. Conner was only created because Clark was violated. Suddenly having a nearly adult son created by his enemy without his consent, it would be disturbing and upsetting. Clark came around, but if he didn't that would have been a valid reaction.
But I also understand why Conner wanted that connection and was hurt by Clark. That both sides were sympathetic made it an interesting and complicated relationship.
As for Conner being Clark's son....well, what else do you call the person who provided 50% of your DNA? That he was created in a lab instead of through sex doesn't make him less of a person.

[Agent Z]

As for Conner being Clark's son....well, what else do you call the person who provided 50% of your DNA? That he was created in a lab instead of through sex doesn't make him less of a person.

I'm not saying he is less of a person because of how he was born. But I don't think that means he is Clark's son just because he shares DNA with him. No one considers Ben Reilly or Kaine to be Spider-Man's sons just because they share DNA with him.

[SiegePerilous02]

Bruce Wayne didn't "die" in the alley. He is and always has been in the driver's seat. Without the Bruce persona/identity, Alfred is just the butler. The Waynes are just a mugging gone bad. He would not be especially protective of children more than any other adult. He wouldn't be so traumatized against guns.

Literally all the hallmarks of his identity are qualities that only resonate with Bruce Wayne still being the dominant identity in his mind that requires emotional agency to actually compel him to continue his mission. If he truly let that persona abd identity die all those years ago, it wouldn't continue to influence who he is twenty years later. I cringe really hard whenever I read Wonder Woman Year One and he insists he's Batman. It just reads like he's trying too hard to buy into his own myth because he hasn't unpacked what happened to him after two decades of living with it and meditation.

Bruce was a more compelling, textured character when writers and fans weren't trying to convince everyone that he's totes badass, and he's only become the most shallow member of the Trinity because of it. He's a kiddie pool with a cavernous depth painted on the bottom to look complex but utterly disappointing in actuality.

I miss when that wasn't the case.

Preach to all of this.

I think it goes for Clark too when they do the "Clark is the real person, Superman is the job." it's like they both switched. I think the truth for both of them is somewhere in the middle and both extremes are "masks" they put on. But Clark leans closer to his superhero identity being the truth while Bruce leans the opposite. Both are less interesting as a result of them swapping these mentalities.

I don't see it as unnatural. As I said, Clark ignored Connor for most of their comic history.

Clark ignoring him in the comics isn't really justification for doing it in the show too, as most people who watch the show will never read those comics. Especially as I don't believe it was a source of angst for Connor in the comics the way it is for the show. Almost his entire arc in season 1 is related to being upset Clark is ignoring him.

Well they did show the beginnings of it in the season 1 finale. Perhaps they could have shown more of it but it didn't just come out of nowhere.

Showing the beginnings of it and then skipping over most of the rest of it isn't very satisfying. It is the main source of conflict for Connor in season 1, and then they don't even show that changing. Connor being the POV character that the target audience is going to relate to also doesn't do Clark favors; they are naturally going to side with Connor's hurt feelings and Clark's perspective may be valid, but it doesn't get much focus. WB/DC struggles with keeping Superman relevant for the younger generation, so presenting him as a stiff adult who hurts the feelings of the kid the audience connects with is going to make him look like the bad guy