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  1. #1501
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    The fuss about "girl" is just silly to me. If other people are upset about it, I can respect that, but the English language keeps changing and these words didn't alway mean what some think they mean now. And the English language will keep changing. So if you want to remove all bad connotations from a word, good luck, because that's not how language works--it's a living language, not Latin, so it will go in new directions you can't predict. If "girl" really is out of the question, then just use "gurl" (look it up in your urban dictionary). But a lot of this is about trademark--so legally, they can't change names without running the risk of losing their trademark.

    Personally, I like "Boy Wonder." It's funny that Dick is the only one who has really owned that name. I thought changing it to "Teen Wonder" was silly and made it seem like the writers weren't aware that "boy wonder" is a common expression in the language. Orson Welles in his twenties was a boy wonder. There are young men of finance in their twenties and thirties that have been called boy wonders of Wall Street.

  2. #1502
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    The fuss about "girl" is just silly to me. If other people are upset about it, I can respect that, but the English language keeps changing and these words didn't alway mean what some think they mean now. And the English language will keep changing. So if you want to remove all bad connotations from a word, good luck, because that's not how language works--it's a living language, not Latin, so it will go in new directions you can't predict. If "girl" really is out of the question, then just use "gurl" (look it up in your urban dictionary). But a lot of this is about trademark--so legally, they can't change names without running the risk of losing their trademark.

    Personally, I like "Boy Wonder." It's funny that Dick is the only one who has really owned that name. I thought changing it to "Teen Wonder" was silly and made it seem like the writers weren't aware that "boy wonder" is a common expression in the language. Orson Welles in his twenties was a boy wonder. There are young men of finance in their twenties and thirties that have been called boy wonders of Wall Street.
    When has girl ever meant anything other "young or relatively young female person"?

  3. #1503
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    When has girl ever meant anything other "young or relatively young female person"?
    When have women not wanted to be considered young?

    I know my mom was in her 30's when someone called her Ma'am out of respect and it brought her to tears later. With all the talk of 'girl power' or 'hit like a girl (as a positive thing)' or 60 year old women going out with 'the girls'.... I know a lot of official 'women' who still want to cling to the term 'girl'.

  4. #1504
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    There's nothing wrong with the "girl" name. I think being offended by that is just being too touchy. Besides, Power Girl has a better ring to it than Power Woman, in my opinion. The single syllable just rolls off the tongue better. I think that's why "man" tends to work well, too. Though, it works for Wonder Woman, well. I think both words starting with W helps.

    Like, I can get it if someone were to find her boob window ridiculous (although, it doesn't bother me, but when I think it about it, it kind of is pretty silly), but this? To me, this is like someone is actively looking for something to find a fault with.

  5. #1505
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    There's nothing wrong with the "girl" name. I think being offended by that is just being too touchy. Besides, Power Girl has a better ring to it than Power Woman, in my opinion. The single syllable just rolls off the tongue better. I think that's why "man" tends to work well, too. Though, it works for Wonder Woman, well. I think both words starting with W helps.
    Yes, because we have tons of adult heroes choosing/using names including the single syllable "Boy", right? There's Beast Boy (which I really dislike going back to that) and that's about it. I'm not offended by having grown women use"girl" but I am certainly annoyed by it.

  6. #1506
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    Yes, because we have tons of adult heroes choosing/using names including the single syllable "Boy", right? There's Beast Boy (which I really dislike going back to that) and that's about it. I'm not offended by having grown women use"girl" but I am certainly annoyed by it.
    Grown women call themselves girls all the time, in my experience.

  7. #1507
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Like, I can get it if someone were to find her boob window ridiculous (although, it doesn't bother me, but when I think it about it, it kind of is pretty silly), but this? To me, this is like someone is actively looking for something to find a fault with.
    Yeah, I get it, but.....eh, some girls like to work with what they've got, and are proud of their cleavage. And even by superhero standards Power Girl has a pretty remarkable bust, and it's not like she's leaving herself vulnerable. I don't like it when the boob window is drawn too large or too low; that's just getting smutty. When drawn right though, it's just some cleavage and not a big deal.

    Seriously, us Americans are weird. Taking such issue with a little cleavage but characters literally getting torn to shreds and we're like, "meh, the art's okay, but intestines don't really look like that."

    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Grown women call themselves girls all the time, in my experience.
    I think (not to put words in mouths) Tzi is saying that what annoys (insert pronoun) is that there aren't many adult males who go by "Boy" and the disproportion is unfair. Am I right, T?

    Of course, being "Girl" isn't seen as a negative by most women in and of itself (context matters, naturally) but generally among guys, "Boy" is a semi-derogatory term depending on where you are. Like, I can call my close friends boy and it's cool, like "Let's get a drink boys." But calling someone you don't know "boy" can sometimes be a quick way to get on the wrong side of a person.

    Though now that I think about it, there are a lot of "Boys" in the Legion. Cosmic. Ultra. Sun. Star. And if we include other terms for a young male like "Lad" the list doubles. Got a few "Kids" in there as well, like Karate, which is gender neutral.
    Last edited by Ascended; 12-06-2019 at 09:43 PM.
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  8. #1508
    Incredible Member Vampire Savior's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    Yeah, I get it, but.....eh, some girls like to work with what they've got, and are proud of their cleavage. And even by superhero standards Power Girl has a pretty remarkable bust, and it's not like she's leaving herself vulnerable. I don't like it when the boob window is drawn too large or too low; that's just getting smutty. When drawn right though, it's just some cleavage and not a big deal.

    Seriously, us Americans are weird. Taking such issue with a little cleavage but characters literally getting torn to shreds and we're like, "meh, the art's okay, but intestines don't really look like that."
    What's kind of funny to me is that when you see cleavage, it's almost always due to a low cut top. To have an actual cut out window is...something else on a bit of a higher (or lower) level. I guess it makes it seem a little too obviously deliberate. But that's just my point of view, and it's not like something that bothers me or anything. It's just kind of worth a chuckle. The next step would be to have the window plus an arrow pointing right to the open part.

  9. #1509
    Mighty Member Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    What's kind of funny to me is that when you see cleavage, it's almost always due to a low cut top. To have an actual cut out window is...something else on a bit of a higher (or lower) level. I guess it makes it seem a little too obviously deliberate. But that's just my point of view, and it's not like something that bothers me or anything. It's just kind of worth a chuckle. The next step would be to have the window plus an arrow pointing right to the open part.
    Here's the thing. I've seen teardrop or keyhole cutout tops before. I've seen women around here wear those types of top with varying size of hole. I don't think the costume is inherently the problem. Lots of women around here seem very comfortable with their cleavage on display and if someone stares, that's their problem. For what it's worth, I don't much care either way because I'm really the last person who should be telling a woman what she should or shouldn't be wearing. I think PG looks great, but I think the problem lies with how she's usually rendered. I've asked my girlfriend and to my surprise, her answer is "it's both." She said it was a cute outfit but guys (and some girls and cosplayers) can't help themselves when rendering her. Some girls have curvy figures, some like to wear clothing to accentuate that. If Karen was drawn posing and with the panels treating her like they would anyone else, I sincerely doubt the problem would be as severe. She would just be someone with a body she's proud of. The problem is a lot of artists really want to draw PG as a pinup and tend to, in which case her physique and outfit do tend to make the problem worse. Moreover, it's not limited to just her. It's not like PG is the sex appeal character and everyone else is treated well.

    I don't think any new name will work for Karen, she is Power Girl for good or ill, but I'm not against letting her get a bit more muscle mass and covering up the boob window if need be. The white leotard works fine.

    I do want to add that Amanda Conner has become known for having PG as something of a signature character and she's always drawn her very much as a busty character with the window on display, but I've rarely seen her art used as an example of why the character is problematic. She draws her as a character, often with humor, but PG acts like anyone else and if attention is being brought to her figure, it's usually for a joke and not in an overly salacious manner. Low brow? Absolutely, but she's treated with as much respect as anyone else and I think that counts for a lot. I can't recall when a panel was constructed by Conner to be some gratuitous ass shot during fights or some weird back breaking pose, and she drew an issue where PG runs downstairs naked. I can only imagine what some artists would have done.
    Last edited by Robanker; 12-06-2019 at 11:05 PM.

  10. #1510
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    Quote Originally Posted by Robanker View Post
    Here's the thing. I've seen teardrop or keyhole cutout tops before. I've seen women around here wear those types of top with varying size of hole. I don't think the costume is inherently the problem. Lots of women around here seem very comfortable with their cleavage on display and if someone stares, that's their problem. For what it's worth, I don't much care either way because I'm really the last person who should be telling a woman what she should or shouldn't be wearing. I think PG looks great, but I think the problem lies with how she's usually rendered. I've asked my girlfriend and to my surprise, her answer is "it's both." She said it was a cute outfit but guys (and some girls and cosplayers) can't help themselves when rendering her. Some girls have curvy figures, some like to wear clothing to accentuate that. If Karen was drawn posing and with the panels treating her like they would anyone else, I sincerely doubt the problem would be as severe. She would just be someone with a body she's proud of. The problem is a lot of artists really want to draw PG as a pinup and tend to, in which case her physique and outfit do tend to make the problem worse. Moreover, it's not limited to just her. It's not like PG is the sex appeal character and everyone else is treated well.

    I don't think any new name will work for Karen, she is Power Girl for good or ill, but I'm not against letting her get a bit more muscle mass and covering up the boob window if need be. The white leotard works fine.

    I do want to add that Amanda Conner has become known for having PG as something of a signature character and she's always drawn her very much as a busty character with the window on display, but I've rarely seen her art used as an example of why the character is problematic. She draws her as a character, often with humor, but PG acts like anyone else and if attention is being brought to her figure, it's usually for a joke and not in an overly salacious manner. Low brow? Absolutely, but she's treated with as much respect as anyone else and I think that counts for a lot. I can't recall when a panel was constructed by Conner to be some gratuitous ass shot during fights or some weird back breaking pose, and she drew an issue where PG runs downstairs naked. I can only imagine what some artists would have done.
    Very well said.

  11. #1511
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Vampire Savior View Post
    Grown women call themselves girls all the time, in my experience.
    Yeah, I think grown women still use "you go girl" unironically.

  12. #1512
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    It's really about keeping the register of the language the same for both sexes or between two different ethnic groups. If you use one register for one group and a different register for the other, then it indicates an imbalance between them, where one is on another level than the other.

    It's perfectly okay for an eighty year old woman to have a boyfriend who is a ninety year old man, and she is his girlfriend. In fact, it would be a kind of discrimination based on age if we said they can't be called girlfriend and boyfriend. The terms for each are on the same register of language.

    It seems okay to me in the Legion of Super-Heroes to have team members called Girl, because you have just as many (in fact more) called Boy. And I'd like to keep that as a peculiar feature of the team.

    In the 1960s and 1970s, the offensive thing for women in the work place was to be called girls, when men were called men. By systematically always calling working women girls, society was demeaning them and putting them on a different level from men. The register of the language for the workplace was off balance.

    I still hear sportscasters--especially during the Olympics--referring to men's team and yet ladies' team. Man and lady are two different registers of the language. If they use lady for a female athlete, then by rights they should use gentleman for the male equivalent.

    In the 1970s, it did seem right that a Spider-Man should have a Spider-Woman, if she's around the same age. It didn't seem right that Shayera would be Hawkgirl when Katar is Hawkman. But with Supergirl and Batgirl it wasn't as clear--because they are supposed to be younger than Clark and Bruce. And changing the names would have been a headache for DC's licensing department.

    But then along came Madonna and Cyndi Lauper, singing about girls. And this was the new feminism, with Camille Paglia championing the right of women to create their own terms of reference and not have them imposed upon them. And there was the Spice Girls pushing for Girl Power.

    And now you have DC's Super Hero Girls--with clearly full-grown female characters included in the toy line.

    As a man, I'm in no position to dictate what women can call themselves. I think it's up to women, speaking with many different voices, to decide what their terms of reference ought to be.

  13. #1513
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    But with Supergirl and Batgirl it wasn't as clear--because they are supposed to be younger than Clark and Bruce. And changing the names would have been a headache for DC's licensing department.
    The first Batgirl (Betty Kane) was teenage girl arround the same age as Robin, and the original Supergirl was also a teenager when she became a hero.

  14. #1514
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    And you could say there's an equivalency between Supergirl and Superboy, as well as Batgirl and the Boy Wonder.

  15. #1515
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    And you could say there's an equivalency between Supergirl and Superboy, as well as Batgirl and the Boy Wonder.
    I can't agree with Batgirl and the Boy Wonder being an appropriate equivalency (Bat-Girl would have been an appropriate parallel). They were in completely different places/roles, and different ages (one adult, one child). I think this is really well highlighted by the fact that they quit calling Robin "The Boy Wonder" when he went to college. The name was no longer suitable, and he became "The Teen Wonder" as that was seemingly deemed more fitting/mature/grown than "boy" for someone 18. But Barbara, an adult, is still Batgirl. Then they made newly-adult Steph become one too, even though her own name that she already had had no such age-related language in it. I've no doubt it was because of branding. Doesn't mean I have to like it.

    I don't have a problem with Kara becoming Supergirl - she was still a kid. Even keeping it for while into adulthood from inertia is fine. It's assigning the name to someone already an adult that really bugs me.

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