Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Frontier]

It certainly made for good television .

[DrNewGod]

I think part of the problem is that nobody's really sure what the alternative was. They were on the verge of bankruptcy. Some big name characters were on the verge of cancellation. Like WW. I kind of wonder if COIE was the problem or the fact that they just didn't plan out the post-Crisis universe enough prior to it. Everyone should have got a reboot all at once instead of dragging it out over the first five years or so.

As I understand it, the conclusion was intended to take everything back to Year 0+5, with Superman starting his career in 1981, telling the back stories in some titles, and in others, picking things up "today" in 1986. Quite like Nu52. Of course, also like Nu52, some higher ups got to handwringing about throwing out things like TNTT (one of their biggest sellers at the time), and Batman. Given how some things weren't thought sufficiently through, I have to wonder if, once the meddling wrecked the plan, they simply ran out of time to plot it out.

[king81992]

It certainly made for good television .

At this point, television despite its flaws handles a lot of DC's materials better than the comics.

[SiegePerilous02]

I think part of the problem is that nobody's really sure what the alternative was. They were on the verge of bankruptcy. Some big name characters were on the verge of cancellation. Like WW. I kind of wonder if COIE was the problem or the fact that they just didn't plan out the post-Crisis universe enough prior to it. Everyone should have got a reboot all at once instead of dragging it out over the first five years or so.

A little bit of column A, and a little bit of column B I think.

As I understand it, the conclusion was intended to take everything back to Year 0+5, with Superman starting his career in 1981, telling the back stories in some titles, and in others, picking things up "today" in 1986. Quite like Nu52. Of course, also like Nu52, some higher ups got to handwringing about throwing out things like TNTT (one of their biggest sellers at the time), and Batman. Given how some things weren't thought sufficiently through, I have to wonder if, once the meddling wrecked the plan, they simply ran out of time to plot it out.

Did Wolfman and Perez plan on chucking NTT? I know Wolfman didn't like what happened to Donna afterward and regretted things straying so far from her pre-COIE origin.

I can understand not wanting to end NTT at the time, but again with hindsight, the book began its gradual (but noticeable) decline once Perez left. I don't know if we'd be missing out on too much if COIE rebooted Titans as well.

But they really should have chucked everything and started over from scratch for everyone, or not do it at all. Having it both ways created a bigger mess than what came before. New 52 did the same thing, but even worse.

[Frontier]

At this point, television despite its flaws handles a lot of DC's materials better than the comics.

And animation is the one thing they'll always have over Marvel.

Every one DC cartoon is usually worth two or three modern Marvel cartoons.

[superduperman]

Marvel has Disney backing. I don't understand why they can't invest in a decent cartoon.

[DrNewGod]

Marvel has Disney backing. I don't understand why they can't invest in a decent cartoon.

They had one: Avengers: Earth's Mightiest Heroes. Disney doesn't want a good toon out of Marvel. They want something that echoes the MCU films brand at low cost.

[Vampire Savior]

Marvel has Disney backing. I don't understand why they can't invest in a decent cartoon.

Action cartoons aren't terribly in vogue right now and haven't been for several years, unfortunately. I'm not sure as to all the business reasons why, but I imagine there hasn't been a good enough return on investment with them. Part of it might be because live action films have gotten to the point where they can believably supply the level of bombast and spectacle that was once only possible in cartoons and comics, so interest in cartoons of that sort might have waned because people can get that fix in the theater.

Probably, though, all that needs to happen is for someone to make really good cartoons that consistently capture people's imaginations and audiences would be into them.

[DrNewGod]

I mean that is essentially what Earth 2 was before Crisis on Infinite Earths. Characters like Superman and Wonder Woman aged, Batman died, Powergirl showed up to fill in for Superman once he semi-retired to be editor, characters had kids who grew into the roles of the JSA and Infinity Inc. I am a relatively young-ish reader (in age, I've been reading for 15 years) but I still go back and buy those classic collections because that was cool to me.

Yes-ish. I totally love the idea of letting E2 be What Might Be for DC. But from "The Flash of Two Worlds" thru CoIE (when any division became irrelevant), E1 and E2 were aimed at the same audience. My thought was about letting a line grow with kids and launching another for the next pack of kids when the first has become too mature for the new bunch (or their parents). It also gives you room to adapt to what each new generation needs.

[Ascended]

I think part of the problem is that nobody's really sure what the alternative was. They were on the verge of bankruptcy. Some big name characters were on the verge of cancellation. Like WW. I kind of wonder if COIE was the problem or the fact that they just didn't plan out the post-Crisis universe enough prior to it. Everyone should have got a reboot all at once instead of dragging it out over the first five years or so.

I don't believe Crisis was the mistake. Yes, things weren't planned out as well as they could have been, and in the long term it's caused at least as many problems as it solved (and I'm being generous). But Crisis was a symptom of other problems, not the root cause.

[DrNewGod]

I don't believe Crisis was the mistake. Yes, things weren't planned out as well as they could have been, and in the long term it's caused at least as many problems as it solved (and I'm being generous). But Crisis was a symptom of other problems, not the root cause.

Totally fair point. I have to admit my criticism is revisionist. At the time I was full on "Holy ****, DC! Work it!"

Thing is, some of their really bold experiments had been done before Crisis. Crisis was not essential to creating fan excitement.

What it did do was enable them to disrupt their confinnig status quo. Like it or not, Kandor as city of mini-Kryptonians undermined some of Superman's narrative. Crisis gave DC a chance to return to the essential elements. In some spots, they did it well. In others...

[jetengine]

Without Crisis DC would have either....

A. Gone out of buisness
B. Been Sold to Marvel.

And afaik the OG Marvel idea was to keep selling the most popular comics (The trinity etc) and let everything else fall. Tgough obviously by now they'd have been integrated so we could have Superman in Civil War.....yay

[phonogram12]

Crisis on Infinite Earths was a mistake, and the biggest mistake DC ever made.

I loved the way they rebooted Batman with Batman Year One, but, yeah, it really wasn't terribly kind to the rest of the DCU.

Marvel has Disney backing. I don't understand why they can't invest in a decent cartoon.

To me, it seems like Disney's primary goal in their Marvel animation department is to promote the product (the movies, which make infinitely more than the cartoons) than telling good, original stories. IMHO, this simply isn't the way to run a successful cartoon of quality.

[superduperman]

Without Crisis DC would have either....

A. Gone out of buisness
B. Been Sold to Marvel.

And afaik the OG Marvel idea was to keep selling the most popular comics (The trinity etc) and let everything else fall. Tgough obviously by now they'd have been integrated so we could have Superman in Civil War.....yay

Marvel bought up Malibu and basically ran it into the ground. I can't prove that it was on purpose but it wouldn't surprise me if someone came forward from that time and outright admitted it. I could see them doing the same with DC. Marvel was kind of a supervillain back then. I might be able to see them sparing characters like Superman and Batman to use for IG properties but redundant characters like Flash probably would have gotten the boot.

[Ascended]

Totally fair point. I have to admit my criticism is revisionist. At the time I was full on "Holy ****, DC! Work it!"

Thing is, some of their really bold experiments had been done before Crisis. Crisis was not essential to creating fan excitement.

What it did do was enable them to disrupt their confinnig status quo. Like it or not, Kandor as city of mini-Kryptonians undermined some of Superman's narrative. Crisis gave DC a chance to return to the essential elements. In some spots, they did it well. In others...

You're totally right, some of DC's best stories came in pre-Crisis and there were a lot of other ways the company could have done things rather thn rebooting that would've helped save them. Despite getting started in the early 90's, I'm actually more of a pre-Crisis fan (generally speaking) so you won't see me defending COIE too hard. I'm just saying, we got the Crisis because of other problems at DC, Crisis itself ended up being a mixed bag but it wasn't the original problem.

Marvel bought up Malibu and basically ran it into the ground. I can't prove that it was on purpose but it wouldn't surprise me if someone came forward from that time and outright admitted it. I could see them doing the same with DC. Marvel was kind of a supervillain back then. I might be able to see them sparing characters like Superman and Batman to use for IG properties but redundant characters like Flash probably would have gotten the boot.

Oh, I think Flash would've stuck around in the Marvel lineup. Marvel bought Malibu just to take some competition out of the market before it could really get a foothold but DC, especially back then, had most of the industry's biggest names. You don't buy IP's like that just to get rid of them, you buy them to use them.

Characters like the Trinity, Flash, and GL, and whoever else may have been a big damn deal at the time would've found a place somewhere in Marvel's publishing. The smaller, lesser known characters would've disappeared, but not the big names.