Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[DrNewGod]

Meh. All your doing is limiting a character you supposedly like. Vic along with his generation of Titans should move on but no fans want them to be stuck in the basement of Father Grayson's house. Anyone can be Justice League material, it shouldn't be some elitist clubhouse.

Being the Elite is the whole point of the JL. It's part of their entire brand. Saying "Anyone can be Justice League material" is like saying anyone that's ever strapped on cleats deserves a spot in The Yankees' dugout. Lots of little leaguers dream of it, but few get there.

[Agent Z]

Being the Elite is the whole point of the JL. It's part of their entire brand. Saying "Anyone can be Justice League material" is like saying anyone that's ever strapped on cleats deserves a spot in The Yankees' dugout. Lots of little leaguers dream of it, but few get there.

The Justice League has included the likes of Red Tornado (whose frequent habit of being destroyed is practically a running gag), Hawkman, who's even more useless to the team than Superfriends Aquaman and Green Arrow who I could write an entire essay on what a screw up he is as a human being and a hero and still never scratch the surface.

What qualifies you for membership of the League has always been a matter of writers and editors wanting you there. There have been far worse choices than Cyborg.

[Raijin]

The Justice League has included the likes of Red Tornado (whose frequent habit of being destroyed is practically a running gag), Hawkman, who's even more useless to the team than Superfriends Aquaman and Green Arrow who I could write an entire essay on what a screw up he is as a human being and a hero and still never scratch the surface.

What qualifies you for membership of the League has always been a matter of writers and editors wanting you there. There have been far worse choices than Cyborg.

Pretty much this. It's funny how since it's Vic, there needs to be some justification to it. It gets on my nerves.

I don't agree about the top part because I never believed in a useless superhero. I just think everyone has their strengths and weaknesses.

[DrNewGod]

The Justice League has included the likes of Red Tornado (whose frequent habit of being destroyed is practically a running gag), Hawkman, who's even more useless to the team than Superfriends Aquaman and Green Arrow who I could write an entire essay on what a screw up he is as a human being and a hero and still never scratch the surface.

What qualifies you for membership of the League has always been a matter of writers and editors wanting you there. There have been far worse choices than Cyborg.

All of whom (except Red Tornado, whom I acknowledged didn't deserve a spot either in my initial reply) have held down multiple solo titles, any one of which exceeds Cyborg's cred. Even Zatanna and Elongated Man have more feature time than Cyborg.

I also agree with you on the "far worse choices" thing. Red Arrow didn't belong. Nor did Vixen. Nor did (deity give us strength) Vibe, nor a host of others.

Always, the lesser lights fall away and the title returns to its core because the JL's brand is supposed to be about the elite of the DCU.

Why not put a good writer on Cyborg, even if only in a backup feature, and build a reputation for him. Simply declaring He's Great about any character (including Red Tornado) doesn't elevate the character, it undermines the team brand.

As is, he'd be great for a new Outsiders, but no one's bothered to build an elite cache for him.

None of which means that I don't like him. I've liked him a lot from his first appearance.

...It's funny how since it's Vic, there needs to be some justification to it. It gets on my nerves.

It is, after all, a controversial opinion thread.

[Raijin]

All of whom (except Red Tornado, whom I acknowledged didn't deserve a spot either in my initial reply) have held down multiple solo titles, any one of which exceeds Cyborg's cred. Even Zatanna and Elongated Man have more feature time than Cyborg.

I also agree with you on the "far worse choices" thing. Red Arrow didn't belong. Nor did Vixen. Nor did (deity give us strength) Vibe, nor a host of others.

Always, the lesser lights fall away and the title returns to its core because the JL's brand is supposed to be about the elite of the DCU.

Why not put a good writer on Cyborg, even if only in a backup feature, and build a reputation for him. Simply declaring He's Great about any character (including Red Tornado) doesn't elevate the character, it undermines the team brand.

As is, he'd be great for a new Outsiders, but no one's bothered to build an elite cache for him.

None of which means that I don't like him. I've liked him a lot from his first appearance.

It is, after all, a controversial opinion thread.

I can read. Still doesn't change my thoughts on the matter. Agree to disagree. Red Arrow, Vixen and Vibe didn't belong? Why? Evidence? Proof? Any facts?

[SiegePerilous02]

The majority of people who want Cyborg booted from the Justice League don't like him in the first place. So being worked up over a character where ever he is, is a complete waste. Let him live.

I like Cyborg just fine. I actually like him more than J'onn, and he's one of the better developed characters in the original NTT run. I dislike making him a founder because it guts his history. He seems less like a full character since they removed his Titans history and stuck him on a team with characters he has no meaningful relationships with.

Liking the character's history is different from liking the character himself. This character has been met with extreme hostility, a fictional character. If that doesn't scream dislike then I don't know what does. Having Cyborg strictly be a Titan is very limiting, he's been stuck there since the 80s. That's not progression. Everyone loves to gloat about his history with the Titans, but I've read every run of every Titans books and I fail to see what he gains by having his Titans history restored. Putting him back on the Titans is going backwards. But that's what happens when nostalgia clouds your judgement. No offense, of course.

Relationships that are actually worth a damn for one.

You say it'd be regression, but his rebootded JL history was regression because it set him back to square one and rehashed a lot of plot points from the NTT run in a half assed fashion ("Oh look, Vic is pissed at his dad again for not letting him die. We haven't seen that since 1982..."). So he was regressed and had his major plot arcs regurgitated somewhat in a less well done team book with characters who have no impact on him. If this was a Cyborg with his full history intact and joining a JL team with, say, Wally on in we'd have a different story. As it is, nothing notable has been done with him since he was made a JL founder besides making him the token black guy who hangs around in the back and doesn't bring anything from a mythos of his own to the table.

Putting him back with the Titans wouldn't do to well right now wither considering the rough shape the franchise is in. Restoring his history and keeping him on the JL would do the most satisfy multiple camps.

Uh......why does it have to be earned? It's a superhero team, not a doggy treat or an allowance.

The JL is marketed as DC's big names. Their roster changes, but history has shown with few exceptions that the big names are at the forefront. If you are on the League, that means by association that you are to be considered a big deal. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't (VIBE), and granted there are far worse examples than Cyborg. He's actually got more cred than quite a few of the lesser JL members if only for the NTT run and the cartoon.

Also, the Avengers may have more varied lineups, but how long do the B and C listers stick around? And it always seems to circle back to including the likes of Cap, Thor, Iron-Man, Hulk, Black Panther, etc. Sometimes even Wolverine and Spider-Man, who really don't need to be there.

[DrNewGod]

Edit: this deserved more thought than I gave it.

[Raijin]

Read, and ignore apparently. How many issues of a solo have any of those characters carried? What are the solo stories that established them as characters who'd attract the eyes of the League.

Most of the arguments for amount to "The character's been around a while, I like him, and my preference needs validation."

Here's a thought! Let's launch a new title: The Participation Trophy League. Oh, wait. They already did that, Formerly Known as the Justice League, a parody.

I have my views and you have yours. Agree to disagree and move on already. We disagree on something and that's just fine. Thank you very much.

[Raijin]

I like Cyborg just fine. I actually like him more than J'onn, and he's one of the better developed characters in the original NTT run. I dislike making him a founder because it guts his history. He seems less like a full character since they removed his Titans history and stuck him on a team with characters he has no meaningful relationships with.



Relationships that are actually worth a damn for one.

You say it'd be regression, but his rebootded JL history was regression because it set him back to square one and rehashed a lot of plot points from the NTT run in a half assed fashion ("Oh look, Vic is pissed at his dad again for not letting him die. We haven't seen that since 1982..."). So he was regressed and had his major plot arcs regurgitated somewhat in a less well done team book with characters who have no impact on him. If this was a Cyborg with his full history intact and joining a JL team with, say, Wally on in we'd have a different story. As it is, nothing notable has been done with him since he was made a JL founder besides making him the token black guy who hangs around in the back and doesn't bring anything from a mythos of his own to the table.

Putting him back with the Titans wouldn't do to well right now wither considering the rough shape the franchise is in. Restoring his history and keeping him on the JL would do the most satisfy multiple camps.



The JL is marketed as DC's big names. Their roster changes, but history has shown with few exceptions that the big names are at the forefront. If you are on the League, that means by association that you are to be considered a big deal. Sometimes it works, sometimes it doesn't (VIBE), and granted there are far worse examples than Cyborg. He's actually got more cred than quite a few of the lesser JL members if only for the NTT run and the cartoon.

Also, the Avengers may have more varied lineups, but how long do the B and C listers stick around? And it always seems to circle back to including the likes of Cap, Thor, Iron-Man, Hulk, Black Panther, etc. Sometimes even Wolverine and Spider-Man, who really don't need to be there.

Thank you for taking the time to display reasons and not being unnecessarily
sarcastic and snarky. I can kinda see where your coming from. I think Vic's relationships are important but at the same time it is also important to establish new relationships and new mythos. If Vic's Titans history was restored I wouldn't be upset. If that doesn't take away from him being a Justice League member, then I'm okay with it.

[byrd156]

Uh......why does it have to be earned? It's a superhero team, not a doggy treat or an allowance.

You need to be tested and prove you can be a part of a team. Are things just handed to you? You can't just pick up a football and become a pro, you can't pick up a gun and become a cop, I could go on. In universe these are the heavy hitters of the DCU who have established that they can deal with dangerous threats. There are stories about the team working to train and better themselves. Out of universe these are the characters that can hold solo titles or are popular amongst fans. Characters that people want to see together. What is even the point you are arguing here?

[Raijin]

You need to be tested and prove you can be a part of a team. Are things just handed to you? You can't just pick up a football and become a pro, you can't pick up a gun and become a cop, I could go on. In universe these are the heavy hitters of the DCU who have established that they can deal with dangerous threats. There are stories about the team working to train and better themselves. Out of universe these are the characters that can hold solo titles or are popular amongst fans. Characters that people want to see together. What is even the point you are arguing here?

I already said my piece. I'm sorry if you didn't understand. I thought I was pretty clear.

[byrd156]

I already said my piece. I'm sorry if you didn't understand. I thought I was pretty clear.

The Justice League is not an allowance or a doggy treat, okay got it.

[Raijin]

The Justice League is not an allowance or a doggy treat, okay got it.

Stop focusing on one part I said to belittle and undermine me. I really feel like people are trying my patience on this thread. I don't need mods in my inbox. I said that because I really don't think a spot on a superhero team is something that needs to be earned. No one truly earns a spot, it just happens. The argument of who's more deserving than others is very stupid because IN MY OPINION EACH AND EVERY SUPERHERO CAN BRING SOMETHING TO THE TABLE. NO MATTER HOW BIG OR SMALL!!!!!!!!!!!

[Agent Z]

All of whom (except Red Tornado, whom I acknowledged didn't deserve a spot either in my initial reply) have held down multiple solo titles, any one of which exceeds Cyborg's cred. Even Zatanna and Elongated Man have more feature time than Cyborg.

I also agree with you on the "far worse choices" thing. Red Arrow didn't belong. Nor did Vixen. Nor did (deity give us strength) Vibe, nor a host of others.

Always, the lesser lights fall away and the title returns to its core because the JL's brand is supposed to be about the elite of the DCU.

Why not put a good writer on Cyborg, even if only in a backup feature, and build a reputation for him. Simply declaring He's Great about any character (including Red Tornado) doesn't elevate the character, it undermines the team brand.

As is, he'd be great for a new Outsiders, but no one's bothered to build an elite cache for him.

None of which means that I don't like him. I've liked him a lot from his first appearance.

It is, after all, a controversial opinion thread.

Having longer solo books does not make you the best. Green Arrow in particular has had stories that make quite the argument that he should not be allowed to make decisions affecting people's lives (we're talking about a man so lacking in education he didn't know what HIV was). You're confusing out-of-universe popularity with in-universe qualifications (and even going by the former Cyborg still edges out against most other choices).

There have been far too many characters of varying importance an d origin in the Justice League for it to be treated as some elite club that only the best can belong to.

[byrd156]

Stop focusing on one part I said to belittle and undermine me. I really feel like people are trying my patience on this thread. I don't need mods in my inbox. I said that because I really don't think a spot on a superhero team is something that needs to be earned. No one truly earns a spot, it just happens. The argument of who's more deserving than others is very stupid because IN MY OPINION EACH AND EVERY SUPERHERO CAN BRING SOMETHING TO THE TABLE. NO MATTER HOW BIG OR SMALL!!!!!!!!!!!

I never went against the idea that each hero can bring something to the table. That's part of my point, those heroes bring something to the table and are invited in based on their heroism or powers or whatever in-universe reason while still having an important out of universe reason as well. (From fan demand to story to sales to a writer wanting to use insert hero)

If a team is just a roster that then why does the name matter? I like Marvel just fine but almost every hero and quite a few villains have been Avengers, it just doesn't have that same spark anymore to the name. If its just thrown around then it doesn't really matter in the end. You lose that uniqueness which becomes a snowball rolling down a hill and other things in comics start losing value. If the name doesn't matter then the roster doesn't either, characters can change at random because they are nothing but a power-set and a costume. Heroes on a team don't just happen anymore and honestly never really did, the JSA and JLA were made of the most popular characters at the time or paired most popular with smaller ones to boost them up and have since become iconic. Rosters are planned out based on a characters history or potential story telling merit. (And previous real life reasons stated earlier)

To me DC has the heroes I would want to aspire to be, that believe in humanity and give all they have even when there is nothing left. The JLA is the paragon of all that, sure there are heroes at DC that aren't always like that but when they are together they become something greater. Being on the JL feels like the peak for any hero in the DCU to me. They work their entire lives to become a Leaguer and then continue on as a beacon of justice and heroism. Not every hero should be a leaguer and I don't think every hero in the DCU would want to be one. But I think every hero would want to rise to ideal and standard set by the league.

Segue-way into a different/parallel opinion that's why I hate stories like Cry for Justice or Identity Crisis. They ruin what the League is, they turn from Earth's greatest heroes into the villains. I'm fine with members of the League having lapses of logic or mortality. These things can make for compelling stories like the Tower of Babel. Bruce not trusting his friends and almost getting them killed is a great example of this. But having heroes like the Atom torture people with the same method his crazy ex-wife used to accidentally kill one of his friends is mind boggling stupid. Or Zantanna and others from the Satellite era deciding to mind wipe Bruce to cover up what they did to Dr. Light was evil. It ruins the ethical debate you could have for mind wiping super-villains. They admit wrong by trying to cover up what they did.

TL DR The Justice League is more than just a team, they are the ultimate paragon of what being a DC hero should mean. And I hate Cry for Justice and Identity Crisis because those stories fly in the face of what it means to be a hero.