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  1. #1951
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Again, the world of the DCU just does not feel like it is relevant to be compared to the setting of a Battle Shonen manga world.

    It's closest equivalent is Tiger & Bunny then DBZ.
    Ok. I still don't get it. I guess it’s one of those unwritten dogmas of the industry. If i were to keep the code, i would have done it like in full metal alchemist or rurouni kenshin or even like batman. Why the protagonist refuses to take life under no circumstances is very much internalised there. Morality is choice. Code of ethics are created for limiting yourself. It atleast makes sense. I might not share the same sentiment. But, i can understand it.As it stands now superman's explanation are flimsy for me.

  2. #1952
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Ok. I still don't get it. I guess it’s one of those unwritten dogmas of the industry. If i were to keep the code, i would have done it like in full metal alchemist or rurouni kenshin or even like batman. Why the protagonist refuses to take life under no circumstances is very much internalised there. Morality is choice. Code of ethics are created for limiting yourself. It atleast makes sense. I might not share the same sentiment. But, i can understand it.As it stands now superman's explanation are flimsy for me.
    I mean, I don't think it's that complicated that we need a Zod Neck Snap to explain it away, but that's just me.

    The Flash doesn't have a complicated reason against not killing people.

  3. #1953
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, I don't think it's that complicated that we need a Zod Neck Snap to explain it away, but that's just me.

    The Flash doesn't have a complicated reason against not killing people.
    It is very much that complicated. I will say it again superman can't content with android 16's argument nor do i think the character values life as much as that person. There is a reason 16's is the only character to ever truly die in dbz. People die. Automaton gets broken and rebuilt . It also ties in with superman's person hood question which was also asked by both siegel&shuster, and reaffirmed in the iron giant movie. Big deal, space hitler's kneck got snapped. As if killing is some sort of game everyone enjoys playing. Why doesn't superman kill? Because killing is wrong and comics code. Sure, have fun with applying that logic. Everyone who is sitting in home in luxury of safety is culpable in the violence a state commits in order to secure its border and keep law&order situation inside it. We as members as society have created a world made of violence . Are you gonna go to a cop and say you are a murder? You can, if you have the guts to point the other fingers at yourself.


    Contradictions was always superman's working space. He faught for truth, yet lied. He faught for justice by being a criminal. Flash doesn't kill people he only causes timeline effups and learns that he needs to stop doing that. Moreover, there is nothing as far as i know that says he absolutely has that code.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-26-2020 at 10:01 AM.

  4. #1954
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    It is very much that complicated. I will say it again superman can't content with android 16's argument nor do i think the character values life as much as that person. There is a reason 16's is the only character to ever truly die in dbz. People die. Automaton gets broken and rebuilt . It also ties in with superman's person hood question which was also asked by both siegel&shuster, and reaffirmed in the iron giant movie. Big deal, space hitler's kneck got snapped. As if killing is some sort of game everyone enjoys playing. Why doesn't superman kill? Because killing is wrong and comics code. Sure, have fun with applying that logic. Everyone who is sitting in home in luxury of safety is culpable in the violence a state commits in order to secure its border and keep law&order situation inside it. We as members as society have created a world made of violence . Are you gonna go to a cop and say you are a murder? You can, if you have the guts to point the other fingers at yourself.
    Again, just different circumstances and situations in my opinion.
    Contradictions was always superman's working space. He faught for truth, yet lied. He faught for justice by being a criminal. Flash doesn't kill people he only causes timeline effups and learns that he needs to stop doing that. Moreover, there is nothing as far as i know that says he absolutely has that code.
    He has advised against killing in the past or harped on someone for doing it when they shouldn't have. He definitely has it.

  5. #1955
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    Not so much controversial. But does anyone remember that political miniseries DC put out years ago that states each superhero’s political party leanings?

    Is there a list for which party each DC superhero identifies as?

  6. #1956
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Again, just different circumstances and situations in my opinion.

    He has advised against killing in the past or harped on someone for doing it when they shouldn't have. He definitely has it.
    How? A guy starts killing innocent people for his own personal gratification. A hero who cannot stop his opponent with talks, nor are there any ways out. An android who always valued life above all else asks to let go of the rigid pacifism, in order to protect life(the only thing a that's different). He argues that one would not become a monster if one chooses to kill in order to protect, not as judge, jury and executioner. But, as mere man who has to cannot let evil triumph . A hero who decides to make that choice. I still think to this day superman and hitman would have been good friends. Had clark removed the stick up his ass.

    There was a list somewhere which has kill list of flash. It felt like barry has a body count.
    https://screenrant.com/the-flash-peo...utally-killed/
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-26-2020 at 10:41 AM.

  7. #1957
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    How? A guy starts killing innocent people for his own personal gratification. A hero who cannot stop his opponent with talks, nor are there any ways out. An android who always valued life above all else asks to let go of the rigid pacifism, in order to protect life(the only thing a that's different). He argues that one would not become a monster if one chooses to kill in order to protect, not as judge, jury and executioner. But, as mere man who has to cannot let evil triumph . A hero who decides to make that choice. I still think to this day superman and hitman would have been good friends. Had clark removed the stick up his ass.
    In the case of a Superhero setting there is the expectation that the villain can be locked up or put into some kind of stasis to stop them without needing to kill them. It's just a different kind of story.

    They were never going to lock Cell up in prison after they defeated him.
    There was a list somewhere which has kill list of flash. It felt like barry has a body count.
    https://screenrant.com/the-flash-peo...utally-killed/
    Most of these are hard to take seriously when they're not even the "real" Barry...and Nora Allen and Thomas Wayne!? Come on.

    As a standard Barry is against killing people.

  8. #1958
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    In the case of a Superhero setting there is the expectation that the villain can be locked up or put into some kind of stasis to stop them without needing to kill them. It's just a different kind of story.

    They were never going to lock Cell up in prison after they defeated him.

    Most of these are hard to take seriously when they're not even the "real" Barry...and Nora Allen and Thomas Wayne!? Come on.

    As a standard Barry is against killing people.
    Bulding in a cope out to have the same dance again is soap opera story telling. It has nothing to do with ethics. You just gave one more unreasonable reason. Why does Superman not kill? He is just lucky enough to be not put in that position and soap opera story telling.

    Who gohan? Gohan might have. If there was a thing that contain him. The guy can destroy galaxies. Moreover, gohan and goku had given chances to many other villains. Who changed. Even if the reason for goku's is to get another bout or something like that.

    I will take your word for it. Barry is an everyman. So, more credence to you. My point still stands.These guys have flimsy reasoning. "killing is bad" no ****! sherlock!

  9. #1959
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Bulding in a cope out to have the same dance again is soap opera story telling. It has nothing to do with ethics. You just gave one more unreasonable reason. Why does Superman not kill? He is just lucky enough to be not put in that position and soap opera story telling.
    It's the medium he exists in but I think there is more to why Superman does not kill. Even if he was put into that position I think he'd find a way around it.
    Who gohan? Gohan might have. If there was a thing that contain him. The guy can destroy galaxies. Moreover, gohan and goku had given chances to many other villains. Who changed. Even if the reason for goku's is to get another bout or something like that.
    Again, the settings and ways the universes operate are just too different to make a valid comparison.
    I will take your word for it. Barry is an everyman. So, more credence to you. My point still stands.These guys have flimsy reasoning. "killing is bad" no ****! sherlock!
    Barry's more of a law-abiding intellectual nerd then an everyman. I don't think they need deeper reasoning to be against killing.

  10. #1960
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    It's the medium he exists in but I think there is more to why Superman does not kill. Even if he was put into that position I think he'd find a way around it.

    Again, the settings and ways the universes operate are just too different to make a valid comparison.

    Barry's more of a law-abiding intellectual nerd then an everyman. I don't think they need deeper reasoning to be against killing.
    Riiiight, this answer was to be expected. They are literally gods. A god can find a way out of anything. I want to read about "only humans" who deal with larger than life question regarding power, morality and violence. Not about gods who don't have to face any moral choices. I guess, superman as he is now, might not be for me. Why are these guys are even called heroes? Pathetic. Tommy is right. The whole lot of them suck. Most of them fight for selfish and personal reasons. Superman is the only one worth anything. Atleast, the guy does it because its the right thing. Others are all jackasses who have been handed power, a "tragedy" and nothing else.

    If you say so,i basically see the same situation.

    A law abiding vigilante, cough! Cough! Another code for comics code. Being against killing while not having to face that choice, not much of a morality. Morality is a choice.This is just dogma being treated like morality.I will tell you what, flash being stuck in the situation and chooses not to kill. Then i will call it morality.The guy a real champ. His resolve admirable and worth emulating.
    Last edited by manwhohaseverything; 05-26-2020 at 11:58 AM.

  11. #1961
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Riiiight, this answer was to be expected. They are literally gods. A god can find a way out of anything. I want to read about "only humans" who deal with larger than life question regarding power, morality and violence. Not about gods who don't have to face any moral choices. I guess, superman as he is now, might not be for me. Why are these guys are even called heroes? Pathetic. Tommy is right. The whole lot of them suck. Most of them fight for selfish and personal reasons. Superman is the only one worth anything. Atleast, the guy does it because its the right thing. Others are all jackasses who have been handed power, a "tragedy" and nothing else.
    I don't see a lot of selfishness in Superheroes, at least in their drive to be Superheroes, but that's just me.
    A law abiding vigilante, cough! Cough! Another code for comics code. Being against killing while not having to face that choice, not much of a morality. Morality is a choice.This is just dogma being treated like morality.I will tell you what, flash being stuck in the situation and chooses not to kill. Then i will call it morality.The guy a real champ. His resolve admirable and worth emulating.
    Well, there have been instances of that, so...

  12. #1962
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    That's cold bro.

    Stone cold.



    You're right, punching is usually Superman's way. And usually I give that a free pass because he's a man of action and gratuitous violence is how we solve our problems in the DCU. But the fatal flaw with 775 is that it's not framed the same way other superhero narratives are; it's literally a debate; not a metaphor or allegory or escapist fantasy, but a straight up conversation/argument about a real-world issue, with two sides trying to prove their stance to the other. That changes the rules of engagement in my mind. If you're gonna write a story where Clark argues instead of fights, the endgame can't be "Clark punches his problems away." Or, if you're gonna stick to that endgame, then Clark should at least get a few good points into his argument first.

    Besides, there *are* valid reasons and arguments against capital punishment and lethal force. They're easy to Google, and were easy to find back in '01 when 775 came out. That's the thing that really kills me with that issue; there *were* good arguments Clark could have made. But he didnt make them.

    But again, this is just me. If you or Midnight or whoever likes the issue I'm not saying you're wrong, just that there's a lot of ways to look at these characters and "my" Superman might not be "your" Superman, but that doesn't mean one of us is wrong.
    You brought it on yourself, sir! I jest, of course. It's only two years of living Kents. Clark will inspire the Legion again if you're on good behavior.

    As I said, I mostly agree with you on 775, particularly what I've emboldened. It was always going to end in a fight. I just wanted the ride to feel like proper buildup. I wanted Clark to actually be in the debate, and if he must win it by punching, so be it. But he needed to levy actual criticism of Black's plan rather than "but it's wrong."

    And don't worry, dude. If you ever need a bulwark to hide behind when it comes to hating a popular story, I'm the guy who often claims DKR is only good for the first half and trash afterwards.
    Last edited by Robanker; 05-26-2020 at 07:57 PM.

  13. #1963
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I don't see a lot of selfishness in Superheroes, at least in their drive to be Superheroes, but that's just me.

    Well, there have been instances of that, so...
    It do. Most of them either fight for glory or vengeance. Yeah! With a way out. #speedforce, barry started running faster than ever before. That was never in question.

  14. #1964
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    It do. Most of them either fight for glory or vengeance. Yeah! With a way out. #speedforce, barry started running faster than ever before. That was never in question.
    Spiderman: fights out of guilt.
    Wonderwoman fights out of: pure alturism and a thirst for adventure.
    Shazam fights out of: child-like optimism.
    Really the only major hero who has vengeance as their primary motivation are Batman and some street level characters like the punisher.

  15. #1965
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    Spiderman: fights out of guilt.
    Wonderwoman fights out of: pure alturism and a thirst for adventure.
    Shazam fights out of: child-like optimism.
    Really the only major hero who has vengeance as their primary motivation are Batman and some street level characters like the punisher.
    Well, a kid playing hero, a woman fighting for glory, guy being guilt tripped and obligated. Yeah! Not personal or selfish at all. Not to worry modern superman comics is all about superman's savior complex. So, they all suck.

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