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  1. #2131
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Honestly, I'm ashamed to kind of say it but I honestly have very little real knowledge of Wonder Woman beyond the vaguest notions and general aesthetics. Golden Age was full of starry eyed, kink-positive feminist utopianism, weird creatures and machines, Silver Age was a little more vanilla and heteronormative, Bronze Age had that period where she lost her powers and learned kung-fu from I Ching, post-Crisis started really leaning into the Greek Myth stuff, but also more did away with the likes of giant ridable kangaroos and the purple healing ray, and the pre and post-Flashpoint period leaned into that even more as the Amazons were portrayed as more and more warlike over time.

    But I don't actually know much about Wonder Woman, I don't have the sort of engagement that comes from really spending a lot of time with the characters, world and material.

    I don't know if post-Crisis benefitted Wonder Woman or not. I think there's probably good and bad elements, like with both Superman and Batman. If I had to pick pre or post Crisis for each of them though, I could do it. Maybe even for Flash or Green Lantern. Maybe. I don't think I could pick one for Wonder Woman though, just 'cause my knowledge is too incomplete. And that's kind of a shame.
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  2. #2132
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    Honestly, I'm ashamed to kind of say it but I honestly have very little real knowledge of Wonder Woman beyond the vaguest notions and general aesthetics. Golden Age was full of starry eyed, kink-positive feminist utopianism, weird creatures and machines, Silver Age was a little more vanilla and heteronormative, Bronze Age had that period where she lost her powers and learned kung-fu from I Ching, post-Crisis started really leaning into the Greek Myth stuff, but also more did away with the likes of giant ridable kangaroos and the purple healing ray, and the pre and post-Flashpoint period leaned into that even more as the Amazons were portrayed as more and more warlike over time.

    But I don't actually know much about Wonder Woman, I don't have the sort of engagement that comes from really spending a lot of time with the characters, world and material.

    I don't know if post-Crisis benefitted Wonder Woman or not. I think there's probably good and bad elements, like with both Superman and Batman. If I had to pick pre or post Crisis for each of them though, I could do it. Maybe even for Flash or Green Lantern. Maybe. I don't think I could pick one for Wonder Woman though, just 'cause my knowledge is too incomplete. And that's kind of a shame.
    Don't be ashamed. What you've pointed out is that Wonder Woman is not one character, but at least five (not counting the movies and TV). Most of DC's most prominent properties have that issue. It's way easier to glom onto Batman, who's only had about 3 incarnations than WW or Superman, who's had more than 4.

  3. #2133
    Guardian of the Universe comicstar100's Avatar
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    I only count Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis as actual "Crisis" titles. All the others are just using the name.

  4. #2134
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    Quote Originally Posted by comicstar100 View Post
    I only count Crisis on Infinite Earths and Infinite Crisis as actual "Crisis" titles. All the others are just using the name.
    Just curious. What about all those pre-CoIE JL/JS crossovers?

  5. #2135
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    I agree with your overall premise, Batman did benefit from the Y1 and Long Halloween stories. That said, he didn't reboot. Jason Todd got rebooted, but Bats - at most - got tweaked. It was more an untold tales type treatment.
    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Which yeah, in this case I agree. Few can argue that Batman is the most stable and everyone else is a mess, especially the other two members of the Trinity.
    I’d actually have to argue that the Batman franchise still got destabilized a *bit* by the New 52; he was largely transferred over and given the untold tales treatment in most things, but the changes to his family were largely unnecessary and ultimately counterprodcutive.

    As you guys have said though, he benefitted from the shift in directions and freedoms of the COIE more than the other characters.

    I guess my companion controversial opinion would be that the killer for Superman’s franchise was that not only did they have the firmer reboot from COIE, but they also had so many people, try and arch it with their own little reboot from 2002 on that it wound up creating a miasma of Silver Age revanchism that never got on the same page for more than a few months at a time, which is why it ultimately was a good thing that some of the Post Crisis stuff came back regarding Lois and Jon (as an addendum); it was invariably about the only thing 100% fresh as an idea and not just different Silver Age fans arguing about how it should be brought back,
    Like action, adventure, rogues, and outlaws? Like anti-heroes, femme fatales, mysteries and thrillers?

    I wrote a book with them. Outlaw’s Shadow: A Sherwood Noir. Robin Hood’s evil counterpart, Guy of Gisbourne, is the main character. Feel free to give it a look: https://read.amazon.com/kp/embed?asi...E2PKBNJFH76GQP

  6. #2136
    Guardian of the Universe comicstar100's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Just curious. What about all those pre-CoIE JL/JS crossovers?
    Nothing against the classic JLA/JSA team ups but I don't really count those either. When someone says Crisis I don't really think of anything but COIE and I consider Infinite Crisis because its a direct sequel.

  7. #2137
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    Quote Originally Posted by comicstar100 View Post
    Nothing against the classic JLA/JSA team ups but I don't really count those either. When someone says Crisis I don't really think of anything but COIE and I consider Infinite Crisis because its a direct sequel.
    So, you're saying the student outstripped the master. Not disagreeing, just noting that the "Crisis" label was used to give the event (that nobody at the time knew would work) gravitas by associating it with all those preceding multi-dimensional crossovers.

  8. #2138
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    Nightwing is better as a team player than a solo hero. In the over two decades he's been getting solos he hasn't developed a consistent supporting cast, strong rogues gallery, or interesting setting. The only times I've found him compelling alone is when he shed the Batman-lite thing and became a super-spy and when he became Batman himself and was paired with Damian.

    Other than that his best character moments for me have happened in a team like the Titans or Batman Family. That's not to say I want DC to stop giving him books, as there's clearly an audience for them. But I honestly don't get the appeal of a solo Nightwing when his best traits (highly respected leader and being the light to Bruce's dark) are best used when he's in an ensemble.

  9. #2139
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Don't be ashamed. What you've pointed out is that Wonder Woman is not one character, but at least five (not counting the movies and TV). Most of DC's most prominent properties have that issue. It's way easier to glom onto Batman, who's only had about 3 incarnations than WW or Superman, who's had more than 4.
    Ha - I've said before that some DC characters are really several incompatible characters, so I guess that makes sense, but the most common ones for me to talk about that are Superboy and Luthor.

    To what extent a character can remain "the same" when given a different backstory, whether slightly or very different, is an interesting question to me - and to what extent they can change while keeping mostly the same backstory. Pre-Crisis Bruce didn't have Batman: Year One, but he had a pretty similar broad backstory before and after the Crisis - but he didn't have Frank Miller's influence before, and Batman seems to act pretty different just based on that - or maybe we all overestimate that. Similarly, the different Bronze Age takes on Luthor all have the exact same backstory, it's just that some writers portray Luthor as an irredeemable monster and others as a sympathetic and likable anti-villain. The irredeemable monster Luthors are pretty contiguous with the post-Crisis "Kingpin Lex," at least at first, but his backstory is totally different.

    Wonder Woman... I don't know enough to comment, haha!
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  10. #2140
    Astonishing Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Alex Ross is undeniably a talented artist BUT I never really care for his art, even though his are some of the earliest comic art I was exposed to as a little one, and I have grown to personally not like for his art from a comic book storytelling standpoint.
    I'm not in love with it, either. Actively dislike it for some characters.

  11. #2141
    Ultimate Member AtheistInRed's Avatar
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    Damian is still unlikable.
    Recent Nightwing comics have been boring.
    There is no big three, only big two (Batman and Superman)
    Injustice and Zack Synder films did damage to Superman's reputation, now he is unlikable to the general public.
    Red Hood should stay solo.
    The outlaws lasted way longer than it should of had.
    Even Harley Quinn is more popular than Superman nowadays.
    Justice League Dark Akropolis War was garbage and I wish to forget that film ever existed.

  12. #2142
    Ultimate Member Gaius's Avatar
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    The interpretation of DC characters (specifically the ones who make up the standard Justice League lineup) as "gods" is dumb.

  13. #2143
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    Quote Originally Posted by AtheistInRed View Post
    Injustice and Zack Synder films did damage to Superman's reputation, now he is unlikable to the general public.
    Yeah, that's why he's still getting several animated movies plus a t.v. series.

    When people hate something they'll contort themselves in knots to "prove" it has ruined their favorite character forever. See Luke Skywalker fans and the Last jedi.
    Quote Originally Posted by AtheistInRed View Post
    Even Harley Quinn is more popular than Superman nowadays.
    The box office returns to Birds of Prey tell a different story.

  14. #2144
    The Man Who Cannot Die manwhohaseverything's Avatar
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    Darkknight returns also did damage to superman as well. Yet, nobody seems to talk about that.

  15. #2145
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by manwhohaseverything View Post
    Darkknight returns also did damage to superman as well. Yet, nobody seems to talk about that.
    Really? I and many on the Superman boards criticize that a lot, actually. I don't know many people who think that book was healthy for anyone other than Batman, and I'd argue it did him a disservice as well in the long run.

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