Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Adekis]

That's a controversial opinion!? Do people not like fun Vic!?

I guess when you put it like that, no, it's probably not that controversial. I think in my mind, before writing the rest of the post, I thought it'd come out a little more like, "Hot take everybody: Cyborg is an emo bitch and only the 'Boo-yah' club is valid! If he ain't eat a whole cow's worth of meat for breakfast and collect vintage transformers, while playing video games, then he can jump right in Lake Michigan. Oh, and the UP should've been part of Wisconsin so f*ck you Vic! I know you're from Michigan state!"

You know, just a whole lot more needlessly confrontational and less thoughtful than what I actually wound up writing.

But I mean at the same time, even though I don't really have much good to say about Sad Vic (Wolfman's version is straight up boring to me more often than not honestly) Cyborg-in-General is probably like my sixth favorite DC character or something, I really love him. So I guess it was inevitable that I'd get more diplomatic about how I wrote it.

I mean, Outsiders just followed his original Wolfman/Perez character development of being this angsty, angry, and sullen guy into the hero people would more recognize from the Teen Titans cartoon.

Wolfman's Cyborg sucks!

There, that's the rude hot take version I thought I was writing the first time.

No, I mean I honestly think that YJO did a pretty decent job, and I question how they could have done a better job at what they did, but overall it slots into a "Cyborg-ecosystem" overwhelmed with moody, overly introspective takes on the Techno-Titan, and that makes it just a little bit harder to take entirely on its own merits, because I'm tired of those traits in other Cyborg media, that's the real truth of it.

For me you have to convince me that the person you replace J'onn with is a good fit for the team and the Big Seven dynamic.

I'm kind of skeptical of the "Big Seven". If you ask twelve people who the Big Seven are or should be, you're gonna get three or four different answers. I think it's really more like there's a Big Five of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, and Green Lantern, and then the other two spots rotate - Cyborg and Aquaman, J'onn J'onzz and Hawkgirl, Shazam and Cyborg, Green Arrow and Hawkman, Atom and Red Tornado, you get the picture. It's quite variable.

For me, I don't see why J'onn and Vic can't both be on the League at the same time. I'm not sure how often that's happened, but they're both among my favorite super-heroes, it seems like they should get to share that roster space, in my opinion. The constraint of seven core Leaguers is artificial, and probably not the case more often than it is the case anyway.

[chief12d]

Lack Lightning is a much better character with his daughters in his life.

I think part of the concern on DC's part is 1) pushing him into the mentor role and 2) making him seem old and out of touch with other big heroes. I honestly feel the TV show has done this a bit by becoming more of an ensemble than a solo. And as a whole it feels like an "Old Man Pierce" or the Affleck take on Batman, but maybe that's just my general vibe of that iteration. But overall I feel like DC cut the legs off the Black Lightning franchise by robbing him of his 2 biggest supporting characters. With DC so eager to push Damian's generation, bringing back Anissa and Jennifer as pre-teens or teenagers seems like the natural direction. Keeps Jefferson young and let's you keep the focus on him while still having two young girls that can grow into their powers.

[Will Evans]

I think part of the concern on DC's part is 1) pushing him into the mentor role and 2) making him seem old and out of touch with other big heroes. I honestly feel the TV show has done this a bit by becoming more of an ensemble than a solo. And as a whole it feels like an "Old Man Pierce" or the Affleck take on Batman, but maybe that's just my general vibe of that iteration. But overall I feel like DC cut the legs off the Black Lightning franchise by robbing him of his 2 biggest supporting characters. With DC so eager to push Damian's generation, bringing back Anissa and Jennifer as pre-teens or teenagers seems like the natural direction. Keeps Jefferson young and let's you keep the focus on him while still having two young girls that can grow into their powers.

If he was used instead of Cyborg in the big 7, he takes the best of both worlds.

Elder statesmen like J’onn used to be, while being hip, urban and cool like Cyborg should be.

[Agent Z]

Cyborg's new origin should not have included the Mother Box or anything from the New Gods. It was an admission by DC that they didn't believe Victor could stand on his own without cribbing from a series that is already frequently carved up to feed into other franchises in the DCU, Superman in particular. His original origin was far better suited for a solo character.

[chief12d]

If he was used instead of Cyborg in the big 7, he takes the best of both worlds.

Elder statesmen like J’onn used to be, while being hip, urban and cool like Cyborg should be.

That's what I'm saying though, Black Lightning as the elder statesmen might not appeal as much as Cyborg the young hero in his prime (which we have yet to see done well). And frankly I think a well done Cyborg would be more interesting than a well done Black Lightning but that's because I prefer big epic sci-fi and not street level stuff.

But in an ideal world there wouldn't be a quota of 1 black character on the League at any given point in time. That way you can have the guy who graduated onto the League and has cosmic, cyberspace adventures on the side along with the grizzled veteran with his own dynasty of metahuman heroes. One of the biggest barriers to diversity on the League is that it has this immutable core of 5 characters with everyone else vying for the 2 secondary slots. Any roster bigger than 7 tends to leave a lot of characters wanting for development so it kinda forces DC to pick a black character and let the others go to less relevant teams.

[skyvolt2000]

I'll be honest, at the time Tony Isabella made those comments, I was willing to give Soy the benefit of the doubt because his run just started. However, as the current Outsiders series progresed, I've come to realize that Mr. Isabella was 100% right.

The issue with that book is-you have to toss in Batman for certain stores to even stock the book.

Especially early on when Batman did cameos. That book is Jefferson's team but because some folks like the store owner I reference don't want that. They want a reason to NOT stock that book.

So Batman is there and really at the expense of Duke's development.

We can't keep tossing Batman or Supernan's name or limit them to cameos to justify a book being made.

Nightwing's version of Outsides went 50 issues. The Terrfics went 25.

Let these books stand on thier own. If it lasts 6 or 50 so be it.

The constraint of seven core Leaguers is artificial, and probably not the case more often than it is the case anyway.

In terms of non-movie JL-it didn't work.

Because a LOT of the stuff for new 52 JL excluded WW, Cyborg and Aquaman a little too much. While other JL stuff featured older versions with John Stewart, Ollie and J'onn.

BLack Lightning is a much better character with his daughters in his life.

YES. Even though I can't stand the show.

Do a book in the vein of Moon Girl and Devil Dino would work. Yes I know parents who bought those trades for their kids.

[king81992]

Cyborg's new origin should not have included the Mother Box or anything from the New Gods. It was an admission by DC that they didn't believe Victor could stand on his own without cribbing from a series that is already frequently carved up to feed into other franchises in the DCU, Superman in particular. His original origin was far better suited for a solo character.

If anything DC hasn't done anything interesting with Cyborg 's connection to the New Gods, being made into a mind slave by Darkseid isn't very interesting.

[king81992]

The issue with that book is-you have to toss in Batman for certain stores to even stock the book.

Especially early on when Batman did cameos. That book is Jefferson's team but because some folks like the store owner I reference don't want that. They want a reason to NOT stock that book.

So Batman is there and really at the expense of Duke's development.

We can't keep tossing Batman or Supernan's name or limit them to cameos to justify a book being made.

Nightwing's version of Outsides went 50 issues. The Terrfics went 25.

Let these books stand on thier own. If it lasts 6 or 50 so be it.






In terms of non-movie JL-it didn't work.

Because a LOT of the stuff for new 52 JL excluded WW, Cyborg and Aquaman a little too much. While other JL stuff featured older versions with John Stewart, Ollie and J'onn.




YES. Even though I can't stand the show.

Do a book in the vein of Moon Girl and Devil Dino would work. Yes I know parents who bought those trades for their kids.

DC tends to shaft their black male characters, Duke and BL got shafted to push Batman's feud with Ras (which has dragged on to long in the current run) and Cyborg was shafted in JLO to push Jessica Cruz.

[chief12d]

Cyborg's new origin should not have included the Mother Box or anything from the New Gods. It was an admission by DC that they didn't believe Victor could stand on his own without cribbing from a series that is already frequently carved up to feed into other franchises in the DCU, Superman in particular. His original origin was far better suited for a solo character.

I agree. DC understandably wanted to give Cyborg a hefty upgrade but instead of introducing new tech that could be the basis for a new Cyborg mythos they rolled in his origin with the New Gods because that's who the Justice League happened to be fighting at the time. Lazy. Though I feel like at first they tried to demonstrate that he was a mixture of human and god tech, but that seems to have been forgotten, including in his own series. Even the greatest contribution to his world, the Digital Universe, is intimately tied to the New Gods.

But overall I think it could still be used to his benefit if they don't make everything about the New Gods and don't make every villain and supporting character tied to that mythology. Thankfully DC hasn't gone that route but writing a great Cyborg shouldn't be about making him some New Godling. At the end of the day they should just treat Mother Boxes like a power-up and focus on original concepts. He should be able to tie into New God mythology every now and then (meeting up with the Forever People, going up against the Evil Factory, etc.) but not frequently.

[Ascended]

I love the "Cyborg is a Human Mother Box" thing. I think it's never been done to its fullest potential, but it's definitely a cool concept.

Here's a pretty spicy hot take - I think Cyborg looking inward and doubting his own humanity and all that gets boring really fast if it's not balanced with just - Cyborg being really fun and cool. The Teen Titans animated series made Cyborg a legitimate mainstream star, and after granting him that kind of mainstream status via membership in the League, DC has just kept on going back to the same tired well of Cyborg being introspective, mopey, and angry all the time, 'cause he's not sure if he's human or not.

Exactly. Larger media has done more for Vic than the comics have even tried to do. And I find that most Cyborg fans I talk to aren't really fans of comic book Vic so much as they're fans of the larger media stuff and what Vic *could* be in the comics.

When I say that Vic looks inward, that doesn't mean *just* navel gazing and whining about his feeeeeeellings! Looking inward is also what eventually lets Vic realize he's still the same guy despite his accident. Examining what makes him human, and coming to the conclusion that it's not the meat and bones that makes a man, is why we can "Boo-yah" Vic, yknow?

[Frontier]

Wolfman's Cyborg sucks!

There, that's the rude hot take version I thought I was writing the first time.

No, I mean I honestly think that YJO did a pretty decent job, and I question how they could have done a better job at what they did, but overall it slots into a "Cyborg-ecosystem" overwhelmed with moody, overly introspective takes on the Techno-Titan, and that makes it just a little bit harder to take entirely on its own merits, because I'm tired of those traits in other Cyborg media, that's the real truth of it.

Well, for me, a character has to start somewhere and I think Cyborg's character development of accepting himself and becoming more like the Cyborg people expect is an important part of the character.

It's like having modern Guy Gardner without knowing how far he's come as a character since then.

I'm kind of skeptical of the "Big Seven". If you ask twelve people who the Big Seven are or should be, you're gonna get three or four different answers. I think it's really more like there's a Big Five of Superman, Batman, Wonder Woman, Flash, and Green Lantern, and then the other two spots rotate - Cyborg and Aquaman, J'onn J'onzz and Hawkgirl, Shazam and Cyborg, Green Arrow and Hawkman, Atom and Red Tornado, you get the picture. It's quite variable.

For me, I don't see why J'onn and Vic can't both be on the League at the same time. I'm not sure how often that's happened, but they're both among my favorite super-heroes, it seems like they should get to share that roster space, in my opinion. The constraint of seven core Leaguers is artificial, and probably not the case more often than it is the case anyway.

I think most people are accustomed to expecting Aquaman with the League at this point and then there's just one more spot to fill that's usually J'onn or Cyborg.

Scott Snyder's League (until Vic went off to space) and eventually the DC Animated Feature's had J'onn and Cyborg on the League together. I think the Big Seven matters from a founding perspective and dependent on what the writer wants to do, but it's like kind of an iconic staple of the League like the number 52 is for the DC Universe as a whole or 16 is for Young Justice.

[Robanker]

It's like having modern Guy Gardner without knowing how far he's come as a character since then.

Peter Tomasi's work on turning Guy from one-note to an actual character cannot be understated. I always used to think Guy was kind of a two-dimensional character (and that second dimension is mostly from his relationship with Tora, otherwise he was a flat singular note) but Tomasi really put the leg work in and made him my favorite GL after Alan.

Controversial take? During the heydey of Geoff's run, before Blackest Night (where I basically started checking out as it peaked then), Green Lantern Corps was easily my preferred of the two books. It didn't have the benefit of Ivan Reis, but man was it a stellar book from top-to-bottom. Real shame it's not getting collected alongside the current Green Lantern by Geoff Johns right now.

[Frontier]

Peter Tomasi's work on turning Guy from one-note to an actual character cannot be understated. I always used to think Guy was kind of a two-dimensional character (and that second dimension is mostly from his relationship with Tora, otherwise he was a flat singular note) but Tomasi really put the leg work in and made him my favorite GL after Alan.

Controversial take? During the heydey of Geoff's run, before Blackest Night (where I basically started checking out as it peaked then), Green Lantern Corps was easily my preferred of the two books. It didn't have the benefit of Ivan Reis, but man was it a stellar book from top-to-bottom. Real shame it's not getting collected alongside the current Green Lantern by Geoff Johns right now.

It bothers the heck out of me that GLC spent so long developing a friendship between Guy and Kyle and come the relaunch suddenly Guy and John are best buds (I mean, they were buds before, but not each other's most important male friendship like they are now).

[Robanker]

It bothers the heck out of me that GLC spent so long developing a friendship between Guy and Kyle and come the relaunch suddenly Guy and John are best buds (I mean, they were buds before, but not each other's most important male friendship like they are now).

I was fine with it. John has long needed his star to rise and I was under the false impression it was a reboot. It wasn't, so that's a shame, but they were buds during the GL/GLC run whenever they worked with one another. It was just different. Guy/John felt like two friends who grew up with one another whereas Guy/Kyle was a guy hanging with his friend's kid brother who happened to be cool.

I think I just wanted GLC to start highlighting more Lanterns, be it John, Kyle, Soranik Natu or whomever. Again, New 52 fell short for this reader.

[Frontier]

I was fine with it. John has long needed his star to rise and I was under the false impression it was a reboot. It wasn't, so that's a shame, but they were buds during the GL/GLC run whenever they worked with one another. It was just different. Guy/John felt like two friends who grew up with one another whereas Guy/Kyle was a guy hanging with his friend's kid brother who happened to be cool.

I think I just wanted GLC to start highlighting more Lanterns, be it John, Kyle, Soranik Natu or whomever. Again, New 52 fell short for this reader.

Never forget Guy first became a Red Lantern when he thought Kyle had died...