Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[docmidnite]

Black Lightning is becoming more well-known thanks to the TV show. In hindsight, it would have been better to have BL join the original JLA, now that his timeline is changed. Jefferson must have been active back in the day to have kids that are grown or almost grown. Whereas, Vic Stone is still supposed to be young--him being in the first Justice League screws around with the timeline--either he has to be much older now or the JLA has only been active for a few years.

The DC timeline is a mess.

BL has been young and single with no kids in current continuity since New 52 and could have been a founder instead of Vic if DC wanted to do so at the time.

[hero talk]

I don't think that many people known about the Black Lightning show I don't really see people talking about it that much teen titans on the other hand gets talked about all the time even if its just people saying that teen titans go is awful and teen titans rules

[Jim Kelly]

BL has been young and single with no kids in current continuity since New 52 . . .

I have a hard time keeping up.

[Sandy Hausler]

I don't think that many people known about the Black Lightning show I don't really see people talking about it that much teen titans on the other hand gets talked about all the time even if its just people saying that teen titans go is awful and teen titans rules

Black Lightning is on the CW. I think it's as well known as any of the CW super hero shows. It's just newer.

Sandy Hausler

[Aahz]

Replace Cyborg with Martian Manhunter or Hawkman, and this applies x11.

But those guys are also not A-Listers.

Martian Manhunter has when it comes to the JLA just the advantage of being a founder.
And Hawkman was since the COIE barley ever a member of the main League, and was more connected with the JSA.

Cyborg definitely has the exposure but he has yet to build any real hook outside of being a Titan.

But just being in a movie or series isn't worth much if it doesn't get the people interested in the character.

[Carabas]

Black Lightning is on the CW. I think it's as well known as any of the CW super hero shows. It's just newer.

Sandy Hausler

It's also a really great show without much in the way of flaws.
People talk a lot more about shows they have complaints about.

[Osiris-Rex]

I think all the justice league is interchangeable except for batman superman and wonder woman and thats not even true of them all the time
there's even a song about it called thats what superfriends are for by Mad where all the other heroes say there interchangeable except for the big three
and thats why they shouldn't call them superfriends then batmans says ok lets call it the justice league

I don't think Flash or Aquaman are interchangeable. I think they are just as valuable as Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. I dare say Flash is more valuable than Batman.
Batman's biggest value to the team is fan popularity, Batman gets people to buy the books. But from a logical point of view he is sort of weak and expendable. And with Wonder
Woman, Superman could easily do everything she can. Her main purpose is to not make the books a total sausage fest.

[hero talk]

Black Lightning is on the CW. I think it's as well known as any of the CW super hero shows. It's just newer.

Sandy Hausler

oh he has a show on the cw now I had no idea I thought you were talking about the cartoon

[kjn]

I don't think Flash or Aquaman are interchangeable. I think they are just as valuable as Batman, Superman, and Wonder Woman. I dare say Flash is more valuable than Batman.
Batman's biggest value to the team is fan popularity, Batman gets people to buy the books. But from a logical point of view he is sort of weak and expendable. And with Wonder Woman, Superman could easily do everything she can. Her main purpose is to not make the books a total sausage fest.

Poor writing can turn any character useless or omnipotent.

I'd argue that when it comes to planning, information management, and intelligence work, the only one within the DC universe that can make him useless is Oracle (and Batman obviously has an edge there in fieldwork). That makes Batman arguably rather useless to a team of Wonder Woman and Superman, but to the entire League? There I'd say he acts as a force multiplier rather than a force addition.

There is also the thing that there have been two characters who have been shown to be able to take out the entire league by themselves: Batman and Wonder Woman. Batman required loads of planning and preparation. Wonder Woman did it with just a few hours of planning, and fought a dragon afterwards. And Batman caused the most trouble, since he managed to realise something was up.

[stargazer01]

Batman is overrated. I just never got all the love.

[DrNewGod]

I got to thinking about my standard of who belongs in The League, and my (who the f cares about it) opinion that Cyborg doesn't. I was wrong. I'm beginning to think there were ways I was right, but not for the reasons I thought.

What I put forth was:

• Holds or has held at least one feature (preferably title), and the longer (or more) the better
• Has a rep in-universe as One Of The Greats
• That in-universe rep is reflected IRL by a well known brand (even if only among fans)

IMO, those are the things that work with The World's Greatest Superheroes' brand. That brand is what what offers JL distinction from other teams, and helps it be worth reading.

There are characters that fall out based on some of those criteria. The Creeper's well-known and has held multiple titles and features, but in-universe, those that know him think he's a weirdo, not a superhero. Red Arrow is well known, and has the right in-universe rep, but hasn't held a title of his own, even if he did play a big role in a team at one point.

Cyborg does meet the criteria (if even barely on the publication front, and [IMO] forced on the in-universe front). Unfortunately, there's one obstacle. If he was ever part of The Teen Titans, he's not allowed to outgrow them, and the problem is Batman. As long as the DCU can't do without Bruce Wayne, Nightwing can get only so old and so prominent, and that holds all the rest back.

Thinking about it objectively, it's not the participation trophy I called it. It's a fact of who sells comics.

[Killerbee911]

But those guys are also not A-Listers.

Martian Manhunter has when it comes to the JLA just the advantage of being a founder.
And Hawkman was since the COIE barley ever a member of the main League, and was more connected with the JSA.


But just being in a movie or series isn't worth much if it doesn't get the people interested in the character.

I am not sure what you arguing,I have seen DC and Marvel kill viable projects with creative teams or directions. Off the top Static Shock, Grifter ,Legion of Superheroes, Shazam, Superboy ,Birds of Prey,etc Saying that comic doesn't sell is misleading especially when they are being mismanaged. Cyborg is a mismanaged property the NU52 Cyborg was doomed when they cut off his connection to his friends and his back history. You said he has no "he has no iconic solo stories, villains, supporting cast or setting" well guess what having some of his past would have done many of those in a his solo. Lets do Cyborg book but lets not have any of his key friendships around for help. You can see the set up for failure from a mile away. And they never corrected it how hard would it have been to make Cyborg in charge of the Teen Titans?

[byrd156]

But just being in a movie or series isn't worth much if it doesn't get the people interested in the character.

I know, that's what I'm saying lol.

[Aahz]

I am not sure what you arguing,

I'm just arguing that he (opposing to what you stated) not an A-List character, he is at best B-List.

And like I said I think he could fit in the Justice League, if they would make they would add a few other smaller characters to the team. But having him as a Founder in a team with just the other Founders is imo not really working.

[Aahz]

I got to thinking about my standard of who belongs in The League, and my (who the f cares about it) opinion that Cyborg doesn't. I was wrong. I'm beginning to think there were ways I was right, but not for the reasons I thought.

What I put forth was:

• Holds or has held at least one feature (preferably title), and the longer (or more) the better
• Has a rep in-universe as One Of The Greats
• That in-universe rep is reflected IRL by a well known brand (even if only among fans)

IMO, those are the things that work with The World's Greatest Superheroes' brand. That brand is what what offers JL distinction from other teams, and helps it be worth reading.

There are characters that fall out based on some of those criteria. The Creeper's well-known and has held multiple titles and features, but in-universe, those that know him think he's a weirdo, not a superhero. Red Arrow is well known, and has the right in-universe rep, but hasn't held a title of his own, even if he did play a big role in a team at one point.

Cyborg does meet the criteria (if even barely on the publication front, and [IMO] forced on the in-universe front). Unfortunately, there's one obstacle. If he was ever part of The Teen Titans, he's not allowed to outgrow them, and the problem is Batman. As long as the DCU can't do without Bruce Wayne, Nightwing can get only so old and so prominent, and that holds all the rest back.

Thinking about it objectively, it's not the participation trophy I called it. It's a fact of who sells comics.

But does he really met these criterial when he joined?
I mean the reason why he had a solo is because he was a in the Justice League and not the other way around.
And in and out of universe he was mastly known as a Titans member, and even there he was hardly among the most popular team members.