Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[TheRay]

rather preferring the golden age setup in that regard - where his parents died after he was absolutely a grown man, but before he became Superman.

Jon and Martha die before he becomes Superman in the comics?

[Aramis]

Jon and Martha die before he becomes Superman in the comics?

Yes. First Mary (when Kal-L was still really young actually) and no long after Jonathan.

[Tzigone]

Yeah, definitely in the same way that Nightwing is closer to Blüdhaven than Gotham.

I agree. Keeping Nightwing in and associated with Gotham (along with other creative decsions) is keeping him subordinate to Batman rather than letting him branch put and be the totally independent he once was. I understand why it has happened. Might even be best money making move for DC. But it is very frustrating to me.

As for the Kents, I was thing of sorta like Superman #58 (but without his father's awkwardly worded instructions to be a costumed superhero but work in cooperation with the law). What I mean is in that one (and indeed, in the visual we saw in Superman #1 when we saw him at parents graves, I think, but am not positive about) when Jonathan died. Clark was an adult. Not "on the cusp of manhood" or an 18-year-old like some later ones, but indisputably grown. And basically becomes Superman right after that. I don't think he should be instructed or trained to become Superman, though. Not by Jonathan or Jor-El. It should be entirely on his own impetus. Though, of course, he's influenced by the values he's raised with. But Superman should be his idea.

In that version, it just said "as Clark grew to manhood, his mother died and finally his father."

[9th.]

This most likely isn't controversial but I'm going to say it anyway. Nightwing shouldn't have a "city" he should be DC's nomad, going where ever he's needed. Bludhaven has never felt right to me and Gotham puts him in Bruce's shadow.

[phantom1592]

This most likely isn't controversial but I'm going to say it anyway. Nightwing shouldn't have a "city" he should be DC's nomad, going where ever he's needed. Bludhaven has never felt right to me and Gotham puts him in Bruce's shadow.

Yeah, i was never really a fan of Bludhaven either. It felt contrived. Oh yeah... Gotham is this hellish landscape with Batman barely keeping it from falling into chaos on a nightly basis... and then there's Bludhaven just down the road that's 100x worse.... Really?!? Just... weak.

[Dark Falz]

I think Nightwing should still be Robin, myself. It seems like a kid identity simply because we're used to seeing it that way now, but it doesn't have to be. I know he's called "The Boy Wonder" or "Teen Wonder" or whatever...but you could simply stop calling him that.

I think one reason why Dick Grayson kind has trouble finding his feet at times is because he gave up his identity to a bunch of copy cats, which I believe has also hurt and watered down the Robin ID. If Dick was still Robin things would be a lot cleaner. In the spur of the moment, when creators (Doug Moench) are thinking of this stuff, they're probably not thinking things totally threw and considering the longtime ramifications of their decisions, but I think the decision to give someone else Dick's identity was ]both bad for Dick and bad for the Robin identity.

[Vordan]

Jon and Martha die before he becomes Superman in the comics?

They’ve been dead longer than they’ve been alive believe it or not. Byrne’s reboot was the first time they lived to see Clark become Superman, and even then Pa tends to die pretty frequently.

[Restingvoice]

I think Nightwing should still be Robin, myself. It seems like a kid identity simply because we're used to seeing it that way now, but it doesn't have to be. I know he's called "The Boy Wonder" or "Teen Wonder" or whatever...but you could simply stop calling him that.

I think one reason why Dick Grayson kind has trouble finding his feet at times is because he gave up his identity to a bunch of copy cats, which I believe has also hurt and watered down the Robin ID. If Dick was still Robin things would be a lot cleaner. In the spur of the moment, when creators (Doug Moench) are thinking of this stuff, they're probably not thinking things totally threw and considering the longtime ramifications of their decisions, but I think the decision to give someone else Dick's identity was ]both bad for Dick and bad for the Robin identity.

Dick had trouble finding his feet because DC want him to be under Batman all the time. Marv Wolfman specifically created Nightwing outside of the Bat office so that doesn't happen. They wanted him to be back, deaged as Robin again under Batman, but Titans was outselling Batman and he didn't want to just undo his character development.

They even planned Dick and Kori to get married and become the power couple of DCU, but unfortunately Titans lost a lot of sales and the marriage writers moved out for a better gig, so with Batman's rising sales, he's folded back to the fam. Then they started to campaign for Dick and Babs pairing instead, following BTAS, also to keep Dick within the Batman fold.

Now that he's in, it doesn't matter what identity and niche they give him, they're not letting him go. Every time they saw progress, they reset it. He managed to clean Bludhaven, something Batman never able to do with Gotham, so they nuked it. He's likeable as Batman, they reboot it. He's successful as a secret agent, get another nostalgia reset, back to Bludhaven.

Even without a niche, he's outselling a lot of books. They're just not allowing him to grow and have a relationship naturally.

[TheRay]

They’ve been dead longer than they’ve been alive believe it or not.

The reason I am finding it remarkable is because I have read comics where they meet and have Superboy come live with them.

[Tzigone]

I think Nightwing should still be Robin, myself. It seems like a kid identity simply because we're used to seeing it that way now, but it doesn't have to be. I know he's called "The Boy Wonder" or "Teen Wonder" or whatever...but you could simply stop calling him that.

I think "Teen Wonder" quit being used when he moved over to the Titans in the 1980s. Could be wrong, but I recall it as a '70s thing. I absolutely agree that Robin had grown up with Dick and was no longer perceived as a "kid identity" by time Dick became Nightwing and we all know that was driven by editorial choices. But I don't think that genie can be put back in the bottle now, and think Robin has become a kid role. I'd have preferred the never-ending succession of sidekicks have their own identities, but for fame-of-the-duo-name that didn't happen. I'm actually not fond of the legacies at all (how's that for controversial?). I don't think Hal Jordan, Barry Allen, Ray Palmer, etc. count, because they didn't (originally) use other character's codenames and because those characters were gone and not intended to ever be used again or have existed when they were created. But for the rest of them - I'd rather the characters not reused code names. I think it detracts from their own dependence (especially non kids), leads to fandom infighting and even leads to the same within the comics, since you'll have one writer or another deliberately undercutting someone else with the name to say another with it is superior. People (rightly enough, I suppose) say their Lanterns were undercut for Hal, but Hal was undercut and "demoted" for them plenty of times, too, and you will have people clamoring for theirs to promoted/others demoted in the universe now.

I do think it's especially problematic with the Robins. And I do think it's hurt Dick most. He used to have all these amazing traits and skills, many of which he shared with or learned from Batman. But then somewhere along the line, they decided to parcel out Batman's skills so each Robin got one to highlight. So Dick lost a lot of exceptional ability because he was the one that came first and had all. He used to be an amazing detective, but Tim's "the detective" now, and so (at least when together) Dick is nerfed in that regard. I don't think it's done Tim any favors, either, over time. I think as more Robins arrive, the "flatter" each became in some ways. You kinda see the same thing when solo heroes are in the JLA together sometimes. Their personalities might get altered to play off each other, or their skills diminished to be more specialized and give other characters something to do, when in their own comic they could handle this situation all their own.

They even planned Dick and Kori to get married and become the power couple of DCU, but unfortunately Titans lost a lot of sales and the marriage writers moved out for a better gig, so with Batman's rising sales, he's folded back to the fam. Then they started to campaign for Dick and Babs pairing instead, following BTAS, also to keep Dick within the Batman fold.

I'll admit to being a Dick/Babs fan, despite liking the early Titans years (by time the Dick/Kori wedding was in the making the Titans were long past bad to me, and I thought they never should have gotten back together post-COIE). Also because of Batman's big popularity at the time, Babs got far more folded into the Batfam than she used to be. She was far more independent a hero in the 1960s and 1970s, despite her Bat-Name and appearing in Bat titles. And after becoming Oracle, she wasn't with him initially, either. But Batman was just so dang popular that the business decision was that was the way to go. And they ended up taking orders from Batman. I much prefer Barbara with the Birds to being Batman's IT and information source. Barbara was retconned to his protege and put it a much more subordinate person to him, too, and I didn't like that.

I do think it's had long-term negative impacts on both characters. Dick was once a primary in the Titans and is now a satellite to Batman again, who can't be a "main" hero. The Titans got demoted to a Junior Justice League and treated like something people "graduate" from, which was explicitly the opposite of what they were when they were at their peak. But I can't say they definitely would have ended up any better off, otherwise. Maybe. Especially for Barbara, since she was in a new name and new position and could have grown there independently. Would have gotten a lot less exposure as Oracle, there, though, probably. But it was the NTT being dead in the water that made Dick being moved happen. Maybe he could have made another move that would have done him better, but maybe not.

This most likely isn't controversial but I'm going to say it anyway. Nightwing shouldn't have a "city" he should be DC's nomad, going where ever he's needed. Bludhaven has never felt right to me and Gotham puts him in Bruce's shadow.

Not controversial, but I've disagreed on Nightwing's thread, and I'll disagree here. First, and most firmly, old-school Dick Grayson (not the current one) is one I love, and I just don't like "travel comics." I like a firm setting and strong supporting cast. I often get as attached to a supporting cast as the hero. Moreover, I think a consistent setting and cast are strong components in a successful lasting IP that can be easily "ported" to movies, cartoons, etc. I think it's a reason that Superman and Batman have been more successful than Wonder Woman in that historically (along with her origin and formative stories being tied to a specific real-world event that can't be time-slid). It makes for easy accessibility for a casual audience. And at his peak popularity, Dick lived in one city and interacted with the same people each week.

The reason I am finding it remarkable is because I have read comics where they meet and have Superboy come live with them.

Presuming you mean Kon, that's the post-COIE change. I didn't like that choice either - too much making Kon like Clark. Give him Clark's powers, Clark's parents, Clark's hometown. Even put a Luthor in there. As has been mentioned elsewhere, it does seem like a lot of the Superfam characters get their individuality pared away and instead get parceled out parts/roles of Clark's past instead. I dislike that.

[Frontier]

kinda[/i] see the same thing when solo heroes are in the JLA together sometimes. Their personalities might get altered to play off each other, or their skills diminished to be more specialized and give other characters something to do, when in their own comic they could handle this situation all their own.

As long as Dick is still shown to be a good detective in solo stuff, which I feel he is, I don't really have a problem.

[PCN24454]

I remember when I made a thread in DC Comics about how Nightwing shouldn’t always be connected to Batman and then it got moved to Batmen. I’m still irritated.

[phonogram12]

I remember when I made a thread in DC Comics about how Nightwing shouldn’t always be connected to Batman and then it got moved to Batmen. I’m still irritated.

Hahahahahahaha!!! This is my favorite controversial opinion yet!

[phonogram12]

Of the Big 3, the only one to really benefit from post-Crisis continuity is Batman.

[Agent Z]

Of the Big 3, the only one to really benefit from post-Crisis continuity is Batman.

Only because they didn't keep trying to bring back pre-crisis elements that had no place in modern times in his case.