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  1. #16
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    Anyone who says the modern DCU (by Geoff Johns et al) is a revival of the "Silver Age" was not alive in the actual "Silver Age."
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  2. #17
    Titans Together!! byrd156's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Anyone who says the modern DCU (by Geoff Johns et al) is a revival of the "Silver Age" was not alive in the actual "Silver Age."
    You just need to crack open a Silver Age book to see they are no where near the same.
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  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Yet Sunnydale being fictional did not prevent the show from getting a fan base and being big pop culture icon. There is also no way of knowing a real town would have made the writing better or given the show higher ratings, or allowed for better writing.
    Not saying that it would have. The name of the town was honestly pretty inconsequential to the story is my view. Yeah the Hellmouth is a big deal but itís the Hellmouth. You could have put that thing anywhere and it would be a big deal.


    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Using real life cities can work just as well, bit I still don't see how they lead to anything better. Marvel works well with New York, Batman works well in Gotham, Superman works well in Metropolis, etc. Why would Seattle be a draw for Green Arrow comics any more than Star City?
    Well Star City sure as hell hasnít proven itself a draw for the series. Not that a whole in Green Arrow is a draw.

    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Meanwhile Wonder Woman hops around to many real cities and none of them have lead to anything special. Because the very fictional Themyscira is way more important, and her mortal cast can be moved anywhere and you get the same results.
    Perez placing Diana in Boston gave us the Kapatelis which despite DCís screwing around with them were great supporting cast members. Rucka got a great deal of mileage out of Washington. Gateway City meanwhile proved utterly forgettable. Themyscira I will give you but when youíre a country whose entire population is women, you canít help but stand out.

  4. #19
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    - Wally isn't that interesting of a character and the only reason he is held in such high regard is he happened to be the Flash when they expanded the speedforce and the Flash's mythology. That being said, I think he needs a new identity so he can so his own thing in his own title.
    - Mr. Terrific should be just below Lex Luthor in Intelligence. Him being below Batman doesn't makes sense based on their characterizations now.
    - on that note, the idea of Batman being top 2 smartest humans is kinda dumb to me. He should be top 10 maybe top 5 but the second smartest seems like something they tagged on because of his popularity.
    - Damian Wayne should be drawn/colored more brown. all the Robins look too much alike as is and it's weird that DC doesn't take the opportunity to differentiate the more racially ambiguous one from the other pale, dark haired, blue eyed, white guys.
    - Duke Thomas is a good character with potential and gets an unbalanced amount of hate from some vocal "fans"
    - they should relegate the big 3's to their individual books, and the justice league and focus on releasing more books focused on underserved characters.
    - we don't need another Hal Jordan story, even if Grant Morrison is writing it. I'd have preferred John Stewart or Kyle Rayner. Hell, I'd take even Guy Gardner. I don't think there is anything left to do with Hal Jordan. We get it, he's space jesus.
    - The Creeper is one of DC's greatest underutilized characters and he deserves more attention.
    - while I respect the nichť she serves, Batwoman has been consistently written as an obnoxious character. She isn't as bad as Damian at his worse, but the overly militaristic schtick is getting grating.
    - caning David Zavimbe is one of the biggest mistakes DC's ever made

  5. #20
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Silver Age revanchism may have helped Geoff Johns resurrect and reinvigorate the Green Lantern franchise, but it's behind the fall of the Superman books, and in general the whole thing where creators hold up the Silver Age as some kind of shining era for DC has caused more harm than good; they convinced themselves that old iconography and an old status quo was more valuable than good writing.

    Superman was still going strong through the 90's and early 00's, but once they started convincing themselves that the problem was the Post-Crisis continuity, they began slowly wrecking the franchise bit by bit. Some of it was totally understandable; a Kryptonian Supergirl is an easier sell. But each time they tried to revamp Superman and neglected the actual momentum of the previous stories, they damaged the brand. They then somehow convinced themselves that it wasn't their mistake for mucking around with the storylines, but instead that the character still wants Silver Age enough. So they went full bore back to the Silver Age, and even with Geoff Johns working his magic, it wasn't a long term solution. So they went further, and used a cosmic retcon to break up the marriage... And found that, nope, that didn't help either, and at the same time Grant Morrison was proving that his writing skills were good enough to rework even old Golden Age concepts into a successful story, the Superman office was sending writers running away from DC because they wouldn't get on board.

    And look at Flash; arguably the book was never stronger than when Geoff Johns was writing Wally West using Mark Waid's toys. Bringing Barry back did nothing for the brand but end up making it vulnerable to marketing declaring Barry the only viable Flash, causing the mess that fractured the fandom. And it's not like Aquaman really took off from Silver Age tropes; its standing was resurrected because, again, Johns as a writer is good, not because "Steve Rogers in a swimsuit" is an iconic look.
    I'll be perfectly honest, I don't like Geoff Johns. He has too much power and his ideas are a mixed bag at best. His Superman origin sucked and this weird insistence that every hero has to have a tragic origin is stupid. Apparently Barry Allen getting doused in chemicals and gaining super speed isn't a good enough reason to become a super-hero, his mom has to die to inspire him to become a forensic scientist too. Ditto Hal and his father. Some ideas, like having Luthor be Conner's human donor, are kind of clever. But a lot of his stuff just sounds like turning the mainstream universe into his own personal fan fiction. The Cyborg thing bothers me more than it should. I guess because I think his reasons for doing it were stupid. He liked the late era Super Powers show.

    As for the post-Crisis Superman, I have my issues with it and I think it created more problems than it solved. Supergirl's history was, indeed, a mess. I've made the joke in the past that DC ruined a lot of characters histories just to get rid of Superbaby! Which is about the only aspect of the SA they haven't brought back yet. In terms of some of the changes, I think that DC was influenced a lot by their TV shows. STAS had a popular Supergirl who may not have been Kryptonian but was close enough to it to count as legitimate. And Smallville I think had the biggest impact of all. Especially since it was a combination of the best elements from the pre-and post-Crisis versions. Smallville is what I consider probably the best middle ground between the two versions that most fans would be able to live with.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  6. #21
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Not saying that it would have. The name of the town was honestly pretty inconsequential to the story is my view. Yeah the Hellmouth is a big deal but it’s the Hellmouth. You could have put that thing anywhere and it would be a big deal.



    Well Star City sure as hell hasn’t proven itself a draw for the series. Not that a whole in Green Arrow is a draw.


    Perez placing Diana in Boston gave us the Kapatelis which despite DC’s screwing around with them were great supporting cast members. Rucka got a great deal of mileage out of Washington. Gateway City meanwhile proved utterly forgettable. Themyscira I will give you but when you’re a country whose entire population is women, you can’t help but stand out.
    Like you say, Green Arrow had a lot lacking as a franchise. Sales wouldn't go through the roof if he suddenly lived in Seattle. What would even be the point?

    The Kapatelis women and others like Mayer, Indelicato and the embassy staff could have lived practically anywhere and the story wouldn't change. Boston and New York in Rucka's first run had no impact on the stories and had nothing to do with the highlights of the runs. Gateway City failed but she's really the only major character where that was the case, because she originally based in a real one. They might as well have left her in D.C because all the real cities she was based in were interchangeable. They don't have any more of a distinct flavor than some of the lesser known fictional ones.

  7. #22
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godisawesome View Post
    Silver Age revanchism may have helped Geoff Johns resurrect and reinvigorate the Green Lantern franchise, but it's behind the fall of the Superman books, and in general the whole thing where creators hold up the Silver Age as some kind of shining era for DC has caused more harm than good; they convinced themselves that old iconography and an old status quo was more valuable than good writing.

    Superman was still going strong through the 90's and early 00's, but once they started convincing themselves that the problem was the Post-Crisis continuity, they began slowly wrecking the franchise bit by bit. Some of it was totally understandable; a Kryptonian Supergirl is an easier sell. But each time they tried to revamp Superman and neglected the actual momentum of the previous stories, they damaged the brand. They then somehow convinced themselves that it wasn't their mistake for mucking around with the storylines, but instead that the character still wants Silver Age enough. So they went full bore back to the Silver Age, and even with Geoff Johns working his magic, it wasn't a long term solution. So they went further, and used a cosmic retcon to break up the marriage... And found that, nope, that didn't help either, and at the same time Grant Morrison was proving that his writing skills were good enough to rework even old Golden Age concepts into a successful story, the Superman office was sending writers running away from DC because they wouldn't get on board.

    And look at Flash; arguably the book was never stronger than when Geoff Johns was writing Wally West using Mark Waid's toys. Bringing Barry back did nothing for the brand but end up making it vulnerable to marketing declaring Barry the only viable Flash, causing the mess that fractured the fandom. And it's not like Aquaman really took off from Silver Age tropes; its standing was resurrected because, again, Johns as a writer is good, not because "Steve Rogers in a swimsuit" is an iconic look.
    Rebooting Superman in the 80s was the first problem. In their eagerness to get away from the Silver Age, they created a trend and we have been paying for it ever since. There can be no forward momentum with reboots, because they start things over and change things. Post Crisis is just as guilty of this as the Silver Age restorations. If anything it is worse because it created the needless problem in the first place.

    And for my opinion...Superman's general post Crisis lore sucks and we are better off without a lot of it. I think Maggie Sawyer, Steel and sometimes the marriage are the only things from that era I like. And all of those could have existed without Crisis.
    Last edited by SiegePerilous02; 08-05-2018 at 02:13 PM.

  8. #23
    Boisterously Confused
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    Retconning Dr. Fate from Nabu's heir into Nabu's host was a terrible idea. The story ceases to be one of a mystical hero, and becomes one of an immortal parasite that is at no risk. If his current sockpuppet gets whacked and the helmet survives, no bigs; just wait for the next chump with a bit of mystical potential to come along.

  9. #24
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    Joker needs to die and stay dead for at least 3-5 years. He's boring and defaults to being the villain in every damn story 50% of the time.

    Supes Rogues need a push.

    Dc need a WW2 series focusing on the JSA

  10. #25
    Fantastic Member Dr. Ellingham's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    Anyone who says the modern DCU (by Geoff Johns et al) is a revival of the "Silver Age" was not alive in the actual "Silver Age."
    You're right. It's fan-speak for using characters or situations that weren't in vogue in the 1990s.

    Basically, not focusing on the nostalgia of 90s / post-Crisis fans.
    Last edited by Dr. Ellingham; 08-05-2018 at 02:23 PM.

  11. #26
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Rebooting Superman in the 80s was the first problem. In their eagerness to get away from the Silver Age, they created a trend and we have been paying for it ever since. There can be no forward momentum with reboots, because they start things over and change things. Post Crisis is just as guilty of this as the Silver Age restorations. If anything it is worse because it created the needless problem in the first place.

    And for my opinion...Superman's general post Crisis lore sucks and we are better off without a lot of it. I think Maggie Sawyer, Steel and sometimes the marriage are the only things from that era I like. And all of those could have existed without Crisis.
    I kind of wonder if DC ever regrets the reboot. I can't imagine they were in a good place back then. At the very least, I think they'd do something different if they could. I don't know if there was any way to save the pre-Crisis Superman without some kind of severe overhaul. And I don't know what that overhaul would look like that would be effective. The current continuity problems of Superman come from a number of avoidable decisions. Superman is the one character in which you might actually be better off using head canon. It would probably make more sense than whatever is official canon anyway.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I kind of wonder if DC ever regrets the reboot. I can't imagine they were in a good place back then. At the very least, I think they'd do something different if they could. I don't know if there was any way to save the pre-Crisis Superman without some kind of severe overhaul. And I don't know what that overhaul would look like that would be effective. The current continuity problems of Superman come from a number of avoidable decisions. Superman is the one character in which you might actually be better off using head canon. It would probably make more sense than whatever is official canon anyway.
    Seems to me they were indeed in a bad place. They'd tried all kinds of things before Crisis including cutting his powers in half, and neutalizing Kryptonite.

  13. #28
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Ellingham View Post
    You're right. It's fan-speak for using characters or situations that weren't in vogue in the 1990s.

    Basically, not focusing on the nostalgia of 90s / post-Crisis fans.
    This is honestly what it seems like to me. In fairness, some of the ways they've phased out post-Crisis characters/elements have been pretty insensitive, so it's understandable that fans of that era could be pissed in certain situations. But to turn around and say that it is Silver/Bronze Age nostalgia run amok seems dishonest as well. Crack open any Bronze Age comic, even one starring Hal, Barry, Kara or Babs as Batgirl, and you are not gonna see something that is similar to their current output. Like, at all. The current DCU in no way resembles the pre-Crisis era.

    And bringing some of those elements back have resulted in some damn good comics, and new stuff is present as well. Johns brought Hal back for example, but he also brought a lot of new stuff as well. Ditto Morrison on Batman, bringing back obscure Silver Age stuff while introducing Damian, a ton of new villains, and Batman INC.

    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I kind of wonder if DC ever regrets the reboot. I can't imagine they were in a good place back then. At the very least, I think they'd do something different if they could. I don't know if there was any way to save the pre-Crisis Superman without some kind of severe overhaul. And I don't know what that overhaul would look like that would be effective. The current continuity problems of Superman come from a number of avoidable decisions. Superman is the one character in which you might actually be better off using head canon. It would probably make more sense than whatever is official canon anyway.
    Things must have been dire back then for them to consider it. Most of us have no way of knowing, we weren't there, but with the benefit of hindsight, it doesn't seem like it was a good decision in the long run at all. Most of their creative overhauls of Superman could have been done without a reboot. Moving the fictional universe forward organically would have been preferable, and the character wouldn't be paying for it to this day. Same with Wonder Woman, who may have it even worse.

  14. #29
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Double post

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Moving the fictional universe forward organically would have been preferable, and the character wouldn't be paying for it to this day. Same with Wonder Woman, who may have it even worse.
    Heh. I always wanted to see a World/Earth where CoIE never happened but time moved on. Something like this maybe...

    - Hal, Barry, and Ray remain retired like they were retired before/during CoIE.

    - Wally visits Barry in the future (where Barry stabilizes Wally's powers so they are no longer killing him) and Wally goes back to the present where he takes over the Flash mantle while Barry is retired in the future with Iris.

    - John Stewart is the only GL in Sector 2814 while Hal is still retired and Guy is still in his coma.

    - Superman marries Lois, and they leave Earth to spend their retirement alone together (leaving Kara Zor-El and Black Lightning as Metropolis' protectors).

    - With Superman retired, Firestorm becomes Earth's most powerful superhero.

    - Batman eventually gets offed by the Joker, but instead of taking over the mantle, Dick stays as Nightwing and does things his own way.

    - Kara Zor-El and Barbara Gordon/Batgirl form a World's Finest pairing in honour of their mentors and protect the world taking on the biggest threats that might come up to Earth.

    - Ray Palmer stays in the jungle, retired with the new love of his life, and Professor Stein then takes over as the world's leading expert in Atomic Theory.

    - Ollie eventually dies, leaves everything to Roy, and Queen Industries goes into the black ops business under Roy as Arsenal.

    - Katar and Shayera retire and go back to Thanagar, and Charlie Parker/Golden Eagle takes over their assignment.

    - Arthur retires and takes the throne full-time, and makes Tempest Atlantis' ambassador to the surface world.

    - Diana takes over as Queen of Paradise Island and Donna's the number #1 heroine on Earth.

    - Changling is still the last survivor of the original Doom Patrol.

    - JLDetroit's Steel becomes more like DC's version of The Shield while Vic/Cyborg eventually becomes the smartest man on Earth.

    A new type of super team arises (one made up of from the W/P Titans, Outsiders, and JL Detroiters as well as others) led by Nightwing

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