Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Aahz]

You need B and C level heroes in the league because the A listers are always going to have there character development elements split between the league and their main books.

The main Justice League is anyway more an event book, and not one with much character development, at least that how it been since flashpoint.

[Neo Goblin]

Of course, there are different ways it's been handled over the years, but I've always liked the idea of the Justice League being the best of the best. For me, that is the main draw of it and what makes it stand out from a myriad of other super teams in comics. How well character development goes between the League book and the character's other books would depend on how coordinated the editors and creators are between the titles. It could either be good, bad, or make no difference.

I've never been drawn to the idea of just about every single hero being in the Justice League like JLU, or the League being largely comprised of B and C listers like in the Detroit era. That's just my personal preference, though, and that's not to say you can't have good comics come out of those set ups. And it's not surprising that, with as long as the Justice League has been around, different approaches have been employed over the years, but I still like that all-star formula the best, by far.

It's just a shame that none of the diverse characters DC has are really among its most luminous super heroes. I understand that history has made that a very difficult feat, but that's just something the company should work on. If they're consistent and plan well, they could do that. These characters are investments, and sometimes an investment doesn't pay off right away, but DC acts like they only want a get rich quick scenario, and doesn't commit well to anything, and instead employs what I feel are dumb tactics and short sighted shortcuts that ultimately don't get them anywhere. Among those being:

Race swapping (though, you see this more in adaptations)
Co-dependent diverse legacy characters.
Putting characters (like Cyborg) on the League and thinking that alone is somehow going to make them matter.

and various other things...

[CosmiComic]

What are co-dependent diverse legacy characters?

And how are B/C-listers supposed to get development when the A-listers take up space in both the JL and solo books? Isn't that short-sighted thinking just based on popularity?

[skyvolt2000]

What are co-dependent diverse legacy characters?

You can't have Miles Morales without Peter Parker. Unless you do a universe where Miles was the only one bitten and there was no Peter.

It comes down to an issue of introducing a POC legacy and NOT having to include the guy before them.

Static does not have this issue.

Miles does. Rhodey does.

In Riri William's case-you COULD exclude Tony Stark and come up with another source for her armor.

And how are B/C-listers supposed to get development when the A-listers take up space in both the JL and solo books? Isn't that short-sighted thinking just based on popularity?

Most B/C can get development. The issue for most (mainly POC) is getting minis and solo shots.

There will be 8 volumes of Black Panther in November. 200 solo issues in Jan 2021.
Moon Knight is on volume 9 200 solo issues
Miles Morales hits 100 solo issues in 2022.
Ms Marvel is at 80.
Static is nearing 60.

Now how many B/C listers at DC can boast that?

How many of color? Kyle? Once you get past him (maybe Catwoman and Dick Grayson)-you got a crap shoot. Because the three behind them-Cassandra Cain, Steel and Jason Rusch have been screwed over by EDITORIAL. Almost every POC had been a victims of EDITORS.

[CosmiComic]

You can't have Miles Morales without Peter Parker. Unless you do a universe where Miles was the only one bitten and there was no Peter.

It comes down to an issue of introducing a POC legacy and NOT having to include the guy before them.

Static does not have this issue.

Miles does. Rhodey does.

In Riri William's case-you COULD exclude Tony Stark and come up with another source for her armor.

Why is this such an issue for people?

Most B/C can get development. The issue for most (mainly POC) is getting minis and solo shots.

There will be 8 volumes of Black Panther in November. 200 solo issues in Jan 2021.
Moon Knight is on volume 9 200 solo issues
Miles Morales hits 100 solo issues in 2022.
Ms Marvel is at 80.
Static is nearing 60.

Now how many B/C listers at DC can boast that?

How many of color? Kyle? Once you get past him (maybe Catwoman and Dick Grayson)-you got a crap shoot. Because the three behind them-Cassandra Cain, Steel and Jason Rusch have been screwed over by EDITORIAL. Almost every POC had been a victims of EDITORS.

Probably because the editors don't care enough. My point was that teams like the JL should give focus to B/C-list characters who don't get ongoings or minis. Not that I disagree with your point here.

[Aahz]

Probably because the editors don't care enough. My point was that teams like the JL should give focus to B/C-list characters who don't get ongoings or minis. Not that I disagree with your point here.

Problem is that this basically turns JL from a bock staring DC most popular characters into a book staring characters that aren't even popular enough to keep a book going.

I think in the end of the day there only two options that really could work to get characters to that level of popularity:
- A Lucky Accident
- Getting a really strong creator on a solo for that character any actually keeping him on it for 5+ years (even if the sales aren't strong), so that he can actually do some world building for that character

[Aahz]

Now how many B/C listers at DC can boast that?

If we are just talking B/C listers (and not just the ones "of color"):
- John Constantine should be well above 300
- Deatstroke should be at around 150
- Etrigan should be a little above 100 solo issues
- Azrael had a 100 solo issues
- Impulse got to 90
- Lobo should be at least above 70
- Booster Gold is also somewhere above 70
- Blue Beetle (Jaime Reyes) is also above 70
- Hitman got to 60
- and of course most of the more main Bat- and Superfamily members if you count them as B/C listers

[CosmiComic]

Problem is that this basically turns JL from a bock staring DC most popular characters into a book staring characters that aren't even popular enough to keep a book going.

I think in the end of the day there only two options that really could work to get characters to that level of popularity:
- A Lucky Accident
- Getting a really strong creator on a solo for that character any actually keeping him on it for 5+ years (even if the sales aren't strong), so that he can actually do some world building for that character

Isn't it also the problem that editors don't invest into those characters in the first place because they care more about the popular ones?

I think splitting the focus between the solo heroes and the team ones in groups like the JL can work.

[DrNewGod]

...Probably because the editors don't care enough. My point was that teams like the JL should give focus to B/C-list characters who don't get ongoings or minis. Not that I disagree with your point here.

This is where a title like The Outsiders or The Titans has value, especially if the set up has their members as cooperating, but independent operators. Even if the character doesn't rise above B-level sales-wise, you can present them in-verse as having the kind of stature the JL merits.

[Stanlos]

Of course, there are different ways it's been handled over the years, but I've always liked the idea of the Justice League being the best of the best. For me, that is the main draw of it and what makes it stand out from a myriad of other super teams in comics. How well character development goes between the League book and the character's other books would depend on how coordinated the editors and creators are between the titles. It could either be good, bad, or make no difference.

I've never been drawn to the idea of just about every single hero being in the Justice League like JLU, or the League being largely comprised of B and C listers like in the Detroit era. That's just my personal preference, though, and that's not to say you can't have good comics come out of those set ups. And it's not surprising that, with as long as the Justice League has been around, different approaches have been employed over the years, but I still like that all-star formula the best, by far.

It's just a shame that none of the diverse characters DC has are really among its most luminous super heroes. I understand that history has made that a very difficult feat, but that's just something the company should work on. If they're consistent and plan well, they could do that. These characters are investments, and sometimes an investment doesn't pay off right away, but DC acts like they only want a get rich quick scenario, and doesn't commit well to anything, and instead employs what I feel are dumb tactics and short sighted shortcuts that ultimately don't get them anywhere. Among those being:

Race swapping (though, you see this more in adaptations)
Co-dependent diverse legacy characters.
Putting characters (like Cyborg) on the League and thinking that alone is somehow going to make them matter.

and various other things...

The solution to the diverse heroes situation is simple. Use them.

Marvel has shown that an icon isn't the only viable property. They have further shown that an unknown can instantly become iconic through Quality.

So use the heroes you have and take opportunities to make new ones, whether legacy or original.

[Adekis]

Unrelated to the rest of the thread at the moment, but I've said it before and I'll say it again: Despite some clear flaws in getting their points across, both Man of Steel and Batman v. Superman are good movies with good hearts, and they make useful, interesting points about their main characters.

I wish we could see the Snyder and Terrio team continue their DC epic into future films, even though I don't care for the concept of evil, brainwashed Superman.

Just felt like saying that at the moment.

[CosmiComic]

This is where a title like The Outsiders or The Titans has value, especially if the set up has their members as cooperating, but independent operators. Even if the character doesn't rise above B-level sales-wise, you can present them in-verse as having the kind of stature the JL merits.

I agree. Not everyone sells at JL levels but they should get a chance

Unrelated to the rest of the thread at the moment, but I've said it before and I'll say it again: Despite some clear flaws in getting their points across, both Man of Steel and Batman v. Superman are good movies with good hearts, and they make useful, interesting points about their main characters.

I wish we could see the Snyder and Terrio team continue their DC epic into future films, even though I don't care for the concept of evil, brainwashed Superman.

Just felt like saying that at the moment.

Except their epic journey was about evil, brainwashed Supernan. I don't want to see more of that.

And Idk how much good heart was in BvS.

[Adekis]

I'm not fond of evil brainwashed Superman myself. But from what ZS has said about what let's call "Zack Snyder's Justice League 3," it involves Superman stepping up and leading humanity's armies against Apokolips, while Aquaman leads the Atlanteans and Wonder Woman leads the Amazons. And honestly, 100% sign me up for that. Can't get to that without going through the nightmare timeline one way or another, so... I'd go through it.

I do legitimately dislike the Evil Superman thing though, brainwashed or otherwise. Like I'm thoroughly sick of it. But also, Snyder's Superman is not evil under most circumstances. He's not immoral in MoS & BvS.

I think that despite largely failing to get its point across, BvS is Good, Actually. The point which it does legitimately fail to get across to many fans, is a beautiful one.

[Alpha]

My controversial opinion, Superman should be the diplomat working with Government institutions, not Wonder Woman. I think the main universe Superman being elected for public office like Calvin Ellis would be a great status quo that highlights the qualities of Clark Kent.

The reason why Wonder Woman shouldn't be a diplomat is that she was never made to work within the system. Marston's Wonder Woman was a radical that was much more likely to create a political movement. Today Diana should be building communes for alternative lifestyles and to shelter victims of violence, both domestic and institutional, not attending U.N. meetings and fancy events.

[CosmiComic]

I'm not fond of evil brainwashed Superman myself. But from what ZS has said about what let's call "Zack Snyder's Justice League 3," it involves Superman stepping up and leading humanity's armies against Apokolips, while Aquaman leads the Atlanteans and Wonder Woman leads the Amazons. And honestly, 100% sign me up for that. Can't get to that without going through the nightmare timeline one way or another, so... I'd go through it.

I do legitimately dislike the Evil Superman thing though, brainwashed or otherwise. Like I'm thoroughly sick of it. But also, Snyder's Superman is not evil under most circumstances. He's not immoral in MoS & BvS.

I think that despite largely failing to get its point across, BvS is Good, Actually. The point which it does legitimately fail to get across to many fans, is a beautiful one.

The different parts of BvS can be good but the general combination isn't

I wouldn't mind evil Superman as much if he was actually the regular good Superman for most of the DCEU up until then. But we spent more time with him being on opposite sides of the other heroes, and fighting against them, so we don't really feel rhe imapct of him being evil