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  1. #3436
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    And why's that a problem?
    Is it a problem? or is a merely a limitation? It is very much a limitation though.

  2. #3437
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Is it a problem? or is a merely a limitation? It is very much a limitation though.
    Every story decision is a limitation. There is no such thing as a story choice with infinite possibilities. Having an older hero in your origin isn't any more a limitation than having one without it.

    The Stargirl show so far hasn't been hurt by being a series about legacy characters. We have numerous popular and successful stories about heroes taking on the mission of a predecessor.
    Last edited by Agent Z; 07-31-2021 at 02:01 PM.

  3. #3438
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    Why is this such an issue for people?
    I think it boils down to WHO it is.

    It's an issue when it deals with "icons".

    Now Star Wars......... Anyone else notice that STOPPED using Rey's generation. If it's not Clone Wars, Luke's era or Mandurian-Disney acts like Rey, Poe and ESPECIALLY Finn never happened now.

    Huey, Dewey & Louie are the only ones who can't stay a certain age in Disney. While Max does. Okay to show Goofy as an older man with a near grown son but not Donald nor Uncle Scrooge with his nephews. Even Mickey's nephews don't age.

    Star Girl is NOT a legacy of Bat God or Superman. So the cooks who seem to LOVE screwing up DC don't care if Star Girl is following after Stripsy or Starman. That is why JSA has done so well or decent because no one cares if Jay Garrick and the gang get older.

    How does Roy Harper have a teen daughter? Like Batman does. How is she Duke's age?
    How is Franklin and Valeria the same age as Miles, Kamala and Sam? Shouldn't he be Jubliee or Synch's age?


    The other gripe with legacies is especially the ones of color is they get USED.

    Aqualad gets a 6 issue mini.
    Shilo Norman gets 6.
    Wonder Girl gets 6.
    Cassandra gets 72 issues.
    Steel gets 52.
    Tim Drake gets 182.

    How many original created POC get that at DC?

    Duke Thomas can only get 3 issues.

    That is the question folks are asking.

  4. #3439
    Ultimate Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    You know, if I had a dollar every time fans accused a creator of resenting a property just because they wrote it in a way they disagreed with, I'd be rich enough to buy DC from WB.

    Snyder does not resent Superman just because he doesn't follow some arbitrary rules on what it means to "get" Superman (some of which were created by people deviating from the character's original concept).
    Statements that Snyder actively dislikes or resents Superman are indeed false and full of hyperbole. Nothing he did was out of active resentment or dislike, he just had a vision and he stuck to his guns.

    But "if you want the audience to connect with Superman, don't turn him into a fucking passive Jesus figure who gets brainwashed into being the problem and is freed through no efforts of his own while Lois is defined by her uterus" is not an arbitrary rule to follow. It's a bare minimum common sense guideline that pretty much all Superman creators would likely agree on, but he merrily breezed right past it. So his vision sucks even if it didn't come from a place of resentment like some claim.

  5. #3440
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Every story decision is a limitation. There is not such thing is a story choice with infinite possibilities. Having an older hero in your origin isn't any more a limitation than having one without it.

    The Stargirl show so far hasn't been hurt by being a series about legacy characters. We have numerous popular and successful stories about heroes taking on the mission of a predecessor.
    Yeah, but those don't exist without the predecessor. Like I said, it's not a problem, it's a limitation. Stargirl stories either leave out her backstory or talk about Starman. It's a limitation because you can't just leave Starman out of her backstory and have it make sense. At any rate the reason it got brought up is just that, "legacy" characters always have the sort of story baggage. It's not really "bad, but it's also not really good.

  6. #3441
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stanlos View Post
    This. Zack is a talented visual directory he is much better as a tactical implement. He should never have been made the helm for a brand he not only doesn't really understand but part of it he actually resents.

    After the behind the scenes details were revealed I would say Jim Lee is in the same boat. Use him for visuals supporting a sound vision.

    Hopefully we will leave this mess behind soon.
    Idk if he resents Superman. I just don't think his story ideas would've given enough focus for Superman to develop

    Quote Originally Posted by skyvolt2000 View Post
    I think it boils down to WHO it is.

    It's an issue when it deals with "icons".

    Now Star Wars......... Anyone else notice that STOPPED using Rey's generation. If it's not Clone Wars, Luke's era or Mandurian-Disney acts like Rey, Poe and ESPECIALLY Finn never happened now.

    Huey, Dewey & Louie are the only ones who can't stay a certain age in Disney. While Max does. Okay to show Goofy as an older man with a near grown son but not Donald nor Uncle Scrooge with his nephews. Even Mickey's nephews don't age.

    Star Girl is NOT a legacy of Bat God or Superman. So the cooks who seem to LOVE screwing up DC don't care if Star Girl is following after Stripsy or Starman. That is why JSA has done so well or decent because no one cares if Jay Garrick and the gang get older.

    How does Roy Harper have a teen daughter? Like Batman does. How is she Duke's age?
    How is Franklin and Valeria the same age as Miles, Kamala and Sam? Shouldn't he be Jubliee or Synch's age?


    The other gripe with legacies is especially the ones of color is they get USED.

    Aqualad gets a 6 issue mini.
    Shilo Norman gets 6.
    Wonder Girl gets 6.
    Cassandra gets 72 issues.
    Steel gets 52.
    Tim Drake gets 182.

    How many original created POC get that at DC?

    Duke Thomas can only get 3 issues.

    That is the question folks are asking.
    I'm not exactly sure what you're saying here tbh.

    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Yeah, but those don't exist without the predecessor. Like I said, it's not a problem, it's a limitation. Stargirl stories either leave out her backstory or talk about Starman. It's a limitation because you can't just leave Starman out of her backstory and have it make sense. At any rate the reason it got brought up is just that, "legacy" characters always have the sort of story baggage. It's not really "bad, but it's also not really good.
    But what exactly is the limitation here? What baggage is weighing these characters down?

  7. #3442
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Yeah I agree with Mik on this issue. Legacies have never made it hard to adapt characters

  8. #3443
    Astonishing Member Adekis's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I agree with you second paragraph. This was one of my main problems with Snyder's Superman. He never gives much dialogue to Superman after MoS. It's frustrating to watch him watch others doubt and badmouth while he says and does nothing about it.
    I basically agree with this? We know that Superman actually does do and say things to counter his image - this is why Jon Stewart the pundit talks about Superman's desire not to be seen as an American, for example. Superman expresses that desire because he doesn't want to be seen as an extension of US imperialism, but he does want to be seen as a helping hand for the global community. This is also why he goes to the capitol building for the hearing with Senator Finch, right, to talk, to clear up the misconceptions she and the world have about him. While it's part of the film's point that he doesn't get to speak up in that moment, it's still basically kind of frustrating that Snyder and Terrio don't give Clark the screen time and the dialogue he clearly needs to make himself understood, not just to the other characters in the film, but also to most of the audience watching it.

    That said!

    What would've been good is if Superman went after Batman to try to stop him being so ruthless, confronts him about it and in the end manages to convince Batman to not be so brutal
    Agent Z is absolutely right here.

    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    But he was saying and doing things about it.

    Debates about the execution aside, that is exactly what happened at the end of the film.
    Superman's ultimatum to Batman could have been longer, more eloquent, than "The Bat is dead. Bury it. Consider this mercy," that is undeniably true. But... like I said earlier, one issue is that Bruce is the protagnoist, and he would have heard only that anyway. And he does, eventually, come around on his ruthlessness, becauseof Superman's example. He doesn't brand Luthor, and he dedicates himself to honor Superman's memory. That's growth, that's progress - even if maybe it could have been presented differently.

    Ultimately I do think the ending is one of the strongest and best parts of the film though. I'm not about to complain about it too much, ahah!
    "You know the deal, Metropolis. Treat people right or expect a visit from me."

  9. #3444
    Astonishing Member marhawkman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    But what exactly is the limitation here? What baggage is weighing these characters down?
    Um I spent an entire post talking about that.... They have a large chunk of their backstory already laid out that you as a writer will need to follow. Like I said about Stargirl, as a writer you have to at some point include Starman. Steele became a superhero because of Superman's inspiration. It's character beats that are already established and thus something you have to write the story around. It's not a bad thing, but with some characters there's a lot more of it than others.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Yeah I agree with Mik on this issue. Legacies have never made it hard to adapt characters
    *points at Powergirl*

    Please, continue your train of thought.

  10. #3445
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Um I spent an entire post talking about that.... They have a large chunk of their backstory already laid out that you as a writer will need to follow. Like I said about Stargirl, as a writer you have to at some point include Starman. Steele became a superhero because of Superman's inspiration. It's character beats that are already established and thus something you have to write the story around. It's not a bad thing, but with some characters there's a lot more of it than others.
    *points at Powergirl*

    Please, continue your train of thought.
    Ok, I see what you're describing, but how does that limit their progression? A character based on the template of a previous one can go in a different direction.

  11. #3446
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adekis View Post
    I basically agree with this? We know that Superman actually does do and say things to counter his image - this is why Jon Stewart the pundit talks about Superman's desire not to be seen as an American, for example. Superman expresses that desire because he doesn't want to be seen as an extension of US imperialism, but he does want to be seen as a helping hand for the global community. This is also why he goes to the capitol building for the hearing with Senator Finch, right, to talk, to clear up the misconceptions she and the world have about him. While it's part of the film's point that he doesn't get to speak up in that moment, it's still basically kind of frustrating that Snyder and Terrio don't give Clark the screen time and the dialogue he clearly needs to make himself understood, not just to the other characters in the film, but also to most of the audience watching it.

    That said!


    Agent Z is absolutely right here.



    Superman's ultimatum to Batman could have been longer, more eloquent, than "The Bat is dead. Bury it. Consider this mercy," that is undeniably true. But... like I said earlier, one issue is that Bruce is the protagnoist, and he would have heard only that anyway. And he does, eventually, come around on his ruthlessness, becauseof Superman's example. He doesn't brand Luthor, and he dedicates himself to honor Superman's memory. That's growth, that's progress - even if maybe it could have been presented differently.

    Ultimately I do think the ending is one of the strongest and best parts of the film though. I'm not about to complain about it too much, ahah!
    I would've preferred if Superman had convinced Batman of all that before he died. Honestly, I think it was a questionable choice to make Batman be the one to try to seek "accountability".

    And Clark definitely needs more dialogue. Not just about the main plot, but to show who Clark is as a person. I don't feel I got enough of that

  12. #3447
    Leftbrownie Alpha's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    *points at Powergirl*

    Please, continue your train of thought.
    Power Girl isn't a legacy character. She is to Superman what Harley Quinn is to Joker. And although there are other Power Girls, none have anything to do with Kara herself.

  13. #3448
    Black Belt in Bad Ideas Robanker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Alpha View Post
    Power Girl isn't a legacy character. She is to Superman what Harley Quinn is to Joker. And although there are other Power Girls, none have anything to do with Kara herself.
    RECORD SCRATCH

    *Pumps breaks hard, crashes anyway.*

    I have to stop you right there.

    Considering Harley was madly in love with Mistah J and PG is Clark's cousin, I'm gonna pump the breaks there and say she's more akin to Huntress to Batman. Someone who formed her own identity and does her own thing adjacent to the head of the IP.

    They're also besties for bonus points.
    May we never forget:

    Quote Originally Posted by Gaius View Post
    Daddy Zeus can hit the bricks.
    Truer words never spoken.

  14. #3449
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mik View Post
    I would've preferred if Superman had convinced Batman of all that before he died. Honestly, I think it was a questionable choice to make Batman be the one to try to seek "accountability".

    And Clark definitely needs more dialogue. Not just about the main plot, but to show who Clark is as a person. I don't feel I got enough of that
    Well, Bruce wasn't seeking accountability. He was seeking revenge. Clark was actually the one seeking accountability.

  15. #3450
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    Quote Originally Posted by marhawkman View Post
    Yeah, but those don't exist without the predecessor. Like I said, it's not a problem, it's a limitation. Stargirl stories either leave out her backstory or talk about Starman. It's a limitation because you can't just leave Starman out of her backstory and have it make sense. At any rate the reason it got brought up is just that, "legacy" characters always have the sort of story baggage. It's not really "bad, but it's also not really good.
    You can't have a Batman story without mentioning the Waynes. You can't do a Superman story without bringing up Krypton. There are Spider-Man fans upset that the MCU has thus far not even mentioned Uncle Ben.

    A legacy character's predecessor isn't baggage. It's just a part of their origin story, same as anyone else.

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