Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[skyvolt2000]

I am Not Starfire gets a lot of unnecessary hate. From what I've heard from unbiased sources, the book was good despite the 'alienating premise'. I have to read it for myself eventually.

It wasn't bad and was not worth all that hate. Mandy spent more time trying not to be her mother than be herself.

[TheRay]

You know, now that I think about it all of these problems could be solved by just giving them their own solos. A Beast Boy book sounds like it could go places.

[marhawkman]

Wrf are you talking about? I clearly explained what I meant in the comparison, I'm not proposing an adaptation of the Dorian Gray story so those themes don't apply. I'm not pitching Donna as a twisted version of Diana's soul, she is just Diana if her childhood was filled with fear ane insecurity that she had to overcome.

Then maybe you shouldn't have used The Portrait of Dorian Gray as a comparison. Just saying.

Cmon dude. This seems like such an unnecessary discussion.

Hey, you're the one who mentioned the story not me. It's just weird to make a comparison between what you want and a story that doesn't fit its description and then insist that isn't what you were trying to do.

But whatever. It's not that important anyway.

All of that...

But also if Diana's problems go to Donna, then it means that Diana's success... is not earned. Diana didn't overcome her own problems, those got passed off to someone else.

If that's NOT the intent of your weird analogy... then the analogy was fundamentally flawed and useless.

[Adekis]

It wasn't bad and was not worth all that hate. Mandy spent more time trying not to be her mother than be herself.

Which I think is part of why I like Mandy more than Jon?

Mandy is defined by being different from Starfire, but also starts finding ways to be different in a more personal and interesting way as well by the end of the book. Jon's defined by being uh, kind of exactly the same as Clark, but Clark and everyone keeps telling us we should be more impressed by Jon anyway. It's just irritating, to be honest.

[Alpha]

All of that...

But also if Diana's problems go to Donna, then it means that Diana's success... is not earned. Diana didn't overcome her own problems, those got passed off to someone else.

If that's NOT the intent of your weird analogy... then the analogy was fundamentally flawed and useless.

I don't see the problem there. Diana is privileged and worthy of it. That's the core of the character. The point of the contest is that it's the first moment where she proves that she is worthy of all the blessings she was given.

Diana wasn't made to overcome her own problems, she doesn't have any. She was made to triumph and push others higher. Donna Troy is the one with problems to overcome not Diana.

[marhawkman]

I don't see the problem there. Diana is privileged and worthy of it. That's the core of the character. The point of the contest is that it's the first moment where she proves that she is worthy of all the blessings she was given.

Diana wasn't made to overcome her own problems, she doesn't have any. She was made to triumph and push others higher. Donna Troy is the one with problems to overcome not Diana.

The highlighted parts are kinda.. contradictory. Also you're glossing over the... why? What made them like this?

[John Venus]

Whilst I think Donna Troy should have more emotional baggage than Diana, I don't think turning the former into a cosmic punching bag is the best use of the character nor does it make Diana look good if her perfection with the price of another character's suffering.

[Alpha]

The highlighted parts are kinda.. contradictory. Also you're glossing over the... why? What made them like this?

I don't see how they are contradictory. Diana has no problems. No insecurities, no clear flaws of character, no struggles to overcome. But the contest is where she is tested beyond what she has known thus far, and she succeeds beyond expectations, proving that she is worthy of all her blessings. If she had failed it would mean that despite all the love, support and talent, she still didn't hadn't pushed herself enough to succeed where others couldn't. To be clear though, while I think this makes sense for the mainstream version of Diana, I personally think the contest should actually be a test instead whrre Diana is provided insurmountable challenges by herself in order to be allowed to leave the island.

The reason why Diana has no struggles to overcome (aside from saving the world) is that she was molded by her mother intk the ideal woman, she was given extraordinary powers, and she was loved by all amazons as the princess in an utopia. Also because inherently Diana loves challenges (or at least she does in the best versions of the character).

[Alpha]

Whilst I think Donna Troy should have more emotional baggage than Diana, I don't think turning the former into a cosmic punching bag is the best use of the character nor does it make Diana look good if her perfection with the price of another character's suffering.

I mean, I'm proposing the "cosmic punching bag" as an origin. Her escaping that cycle of unhappiness would be how she comes into our world. And then it's about her overcoming this depression and insecurities while becoming the first Wonder Girl.

[Agent Z]

Yep. He was trying to distort Bart into a version of Pre Crisis Wally West/Kid Flash which he remembered.

Even though Weisman is helming YJ, a lot of what they do on the show feels in line with how Johns views the DCU; the 'Titans' on the show are a sub org of the League and not their own thing, you have t-shirt and jeans Superboy in the same generation as Dick Grayson Robin and Wally West Kid Flash. NTT characters like Starfire and Raven are non existent although they managed to bring in Cyborg later on and the entire universe has the same tone.

I don't think it takes that much influence from Johns. Conner's characterization and appearance are the most obvious but I don't think the Titans were depicted as being a subdivision of the League during Johns's run (in fact, I'm pretty sure that was more the case during Rebirth). Conner being the same generation as Wally and Dick is just another instance of adaptations mixing and matching eras and generations, something done often in X-Men adaptations and was done by the first Titans show as well. Starfire and Raven's absence is likely due to not wanting the show to be too much like Teen Titans and even then, that could change in a future season. Plus, Starfire and Raven were in Johns's run.

[Agent Z]

I don't see how they are contradictory. Diana has no problems. No insecurities, no clear flaws of character, no struggles to overcome. But the contest is where she is tested beyond what she has known thus far, and she succeeds beyond expectations, proving that she is worthy of all her blessings. If she had failed it would mean that despite all the love, support and talent, she still didn't hadn't pushed herself enough to succeed where others couldn't. To be clear though, while I think this makes sense for the mainstream version of Diana, I personally think the contest should actually be a test instead whrre Diana is provided insurmountable challenges by herself in order to be allowed to leave the island.

The reason why Diana has no struggles to overcome (aside from saving the world) is that she was molded by her mother intk the ideal woman, she was given extraordinary powers, and she was loved by all amazons as the princess in an utopia. Also because inherently Diana loves challenges (or at least she does in the best versions of the character).

That isn't true of Diana. At least it isn't true of the well written versions of the character. Your view of her ironically sounds a lot like what people who don't like the character would say about her. I'm quite surprised to see this coming from you when you've criticized certain versions of Diana for not feeling human enough. Also, no one is worthy of privilege. By definition, it is something no one can be worthy of.

As for Donna overcoming insecurities, a young girl who lost her parents at a very early age and has to grapple with that in addition to living up to the ideals of a superhero is far more relatable than being a cosmic punching bag.

[Alpha]

That isn't true of Diana. At least it isn't true of the well written versions of the character. Your view of her ironically sounds a lot like what people who don't like the character would say about her. I'm quite surprised to see this coming from you when you've criticized certain versions of Diana for not feeling human enough. Also, no one is worthy of privilege. By definition, it is something no one can be worthy of.

When we get into these long arguments somethings I write might be confusing because it's a response to someone else's statement. Obviously Diana can make mistakes and fail, be wrong, be hesitant or even afraid at times. What I meant to say was that Diana has no clear character flaws, no particular struggles (other than saving the world), no insecurities. She is a profoundly stable human being, full of self love and confidence while still willing to listen to others. Woman

And when I said that Perez didn't sound human I meant the way he wrote her thoughts and interactions with others. Just look at Riverdale if you want proof that character flaws doesn't mean good characterization.

As for Donna overcoming insecurities, a young girl who lost her parents at a very early age and has to grapple with that in addition to living up to the ideals of a superhero is far more relatable than being a cosmic punching bag.

I mean, I don't know many orphans, but that I'm sure there are a lot of people that applies to. Anyway, why can't Donna be relateable even if she was a "cosmic punching bag"? It's basically a cosmic version of bullying and she would behave just like someone that spent their childhood being bullied and start overcoming it as they turn into a teenager. That sounds much more understandable and compelling than a girl who is insecure simply because she doesn't know her parents, even though she was raised in an utopia by women that loved her and that gave her the powers of Wonder Woman.

[marhawkman]

I mean, I don't know many orphans, but that I'm sure there are a lot of people that applies to. Anyway, why can't Donna be relateable even if she was a "cosmic punching bag"? It's basically a cosmic version of bullying and she would behave just like someone that spent their childhood being bullied and start overcoming it as they turn into a teenager. That sounds much more understandable and compelling than a girl who is insecure simply because she doesn't know her parents, even though she was raised in an utopia by women that loved her and that gave her the powers of Wonder Woman.

Understandable? Relatable? When it's a metaphysical concept that doesn't follow the rules of real-life at all? The idea it'd be more relatable than being in an unfamiliar place surrounded by strangers is.... incomprehensible. The bullying analogy makes no sense unless it's directed by intelligently controlled malice... which.. they did that with the Dark Angel story.... and it was confusing.

[WonderLight789]

Wonder Woman should stopped being published. Her character now has a boring personality. No real goals. And she is pathetically weak. Time to give her a break instead of giving her mediocre writing after mediocre writing.

[Tzigone]

Understandable? Relatable? When it's a metaphysical concept that doesn't follow the rules of real-life at all? The idea it'd be more relatable than being in an unfamiliar place surrounded by strangers is.... incomprehensible. The bullying analogy makes no sense unless it's directed by intelligently controlled malice... which.. they did that with the Dark Angel story.... and it was confusing.

Absolutely. And it rewrites her history to an extent that prior events and characterizations don't really mesh. As she was depicted in her early days, she just didn't have that kind of trauma. And I really don't want to see more angst and trauma heaped on characters. I'm not saying it can never work, but it is overdone, IMO, and much worse when retconned in. And it's just distasteful and diminishes Diana's accomplishments, too. I also don't like people with mundane births retconned to make them special (like Cassie or even Diana, who started out special) or prophesied (really hate prophecy and destiny). Super-duper-cursed is only very, very marginally less annoying than super-duper-blessed