Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[king81992]

I think it tends to manifest in different ways depending on who is expressing the opinion. Some find the marriage boring, but others take it too far and bash Lois herself for all the storytelling problems and insist Clark should be with a more "worthy" woman and/or sleep around a lot. Then there is the belief that he should be the strongest in physical stats and that should manifest as him owning his teammates in battle to assert his dominance or whatever. When most reasonable fans who want Clark to live up to his legend as the strongest still expect other heroes to be close and surpass him in other areas. Back in the Bronze age he was the strongest and didn't have anything to prove, so it's not like they pitted heroes against each other as much.

Stuff like the fight in the JL movie (either version) may seem cathartic to Superman fans on the surface, but it was totally unnecessary and shallow. Yes, if he was unleashed that's pretty much how a fight between him and the parties present (excluding Wonder Woman, who got nerfed) would go down, but it's just empty posturing that didn't flesh him out as a character. It pretty much was "Superman has value because he can kick everyone's ass, including the world's most powerful woman." That's not helpful to him or anyone.

Overall though, I think the toxic masculinity types tend to favor Frank Miller-flavored versions of Batman over Superman (and other versions of Batman).

Toxic masculinity types worship Batman despite him being a failure of a human being and teammate who makes everything worse and mistreats his family. In their mind he's a self made man(ignoring that he was born with a silver spoon) and doesn't compromise(ignoring his slavish refusal to put down the Joker has caused lots of death and carnage).

[SiegePerilous02]

Toxic masculinity types worship Batman despite him being a failure of a human being and teammate who makes everything worse and mistreats his family. In their mind he's a self made man(ignoring that he was born with a silver spoon) and doesn't compromise(ignoring his slavish refusal to put down the Joker has caused lots of death and carnage).

Yep. This is in part why damaged longer Batman who abuses his family and is mistrustful of his allies is popular. Whereas the version who is a good mentor and genuinely, consistently hero struggles to come back and stick.
Also why we get people online screaming how he can kick Superman's ass and he doesn't need Robin because Robin is a >insert homophobic slur<

[Frontier]

Toxic masculinity types worship Batman despite him being a failure of a human being and teammate who makes everything worse and mistreats his family. In their mind he's a self made man(ignoring that he was born with a silver spoon) and doesn't compromise(ignoring his slavish refusal to put down the Joker has caused lots of death and carnage).

How much of his money mattered as far as his training though?

[Gaius]

How much of his money mattered as far as his training though?

Being able to fly to these far off countries/locales and pay for this expensive equipment to remain in shape doesn't pay for it self.

[Agent Z]

I feel like the toxic masculinity types have issues with Superman.

They absolutely do. But some of his fans are also guilty of it, mainly as an overreaction to what they feel is a decline of Superman since The Dark Knight Returns.

You can see a lot of this in certain criticisms against his depictions in post-crisis, DCAU, Smallville, Rebirth, CW Supergirl, Young Justice and even the DCEU.

[Frontier]

Being able to fly to these far off countries/locales and pay for this expensive equipment to remain in shape doesn't pay for it self.

The former I guess he would have to pay to afford traveling around the world, yeah, although I'm not sure how much of his training he actually paid for to go through with it. It's not like he paid Zatara to train him. That and he probably didn't want there to be a paper trail of what Bruce Wayne is doing.

This makes me wonder about the Batfamily using top of the line exercise gear and how much it costs .

They absolutely do. But some of his fans are also guilty of it, mainly as an overreaction to what they feel is a decline of Superman since The Dark Knight Returns.

You can see a lot of this in certain criticisms against his depictions in post-crisis, DCAU, Smallville, Rebirth, CW Supergirl, Young Justice and even the DCEU.

I think it might be part of it but I don't think that means there aren't legitimate critiques about how he was portrayed there in certain instances versus other characters.

[SiegePerilous02]

They absolutely do. But some of his fans are also guilty of it, mainly as an overreaction to what they feel is a decline of Superman since The Dark Knight Returns.

You can see a lot of this in certain criticisms against his depictions in post-crisis, DCAU, Smallville, Rebirth, CW Supergirl, Young Justice and even the DCEU.

Young Justice is weird in that the criticism is that he isn't warm/affectionate enough towards Connor, but that also downplays that he has a right to be weirded out/feel a bit violated that his DNA was used without his consent to create a clone. I think Clark's stand-offish reaction to Connor was fine, but the execution to having him come around was drawn out too much because they wanted it to happen in the finale. And I think time skipping over a lot of their interactions didn't help.

The DCEU is both the target of at times unfair criticism in that regard, but also perpetrates one of the biggest single and most prolific offenses (Superman is important because he can kick the entire JL's ass, so he's the alpha male).

I also don't think it should be overlooked that versions like Pre-Crisis and New 52 can receive strawman arguments as well.

[Agent Z]

Young Justice is weird in that the criticism is that he isn't warm/affectionate enough towards Connor, but that also downplays that he has a right to be weirded out/feel a bit violated that his DNA was used without his consent to create a clone. I think Clark's stand-offish reaction to Connor was fine, but the execution to having him come around was drawn out too much because they wanted it to happen in the finale. And I think time skipping over a lot of their interactions didn't help.

The DCEU is both the target of at times unfair criticism in that regard, but also perpetrates one of the biggest single and most prolific offenses (Superman is important because he can kick the entire JL's ass, so he's the alpha male).

I also don't think it should be overlooked that versions like Pre-Crisis and New 52 can receive strawman arguments as well.

Fair enough. But it didn't escape my attention that a lot of the people who hated DCEU Superman cited the scene of him curb stomping the League as an improvement and why they preferred Whedon's version (Snyder's at least didn't make it so one-sided).

[Frontier]

Young Justice is weird in that the criticism is that he isn't warm/affectionate enough towards Connor, but that also downplays that he has a right to be weirded out/feel a bit violated that his DNA was used without his consent to create a clone. I think Clark's stand-offish reaction to Connor was fine, but the execution to having him come around was drawn out too much because they wanted it to happen in the finale. And I think time skipping over a lot of their interactions didn't help.

It doesn't help that his attempts to get to know Conner were in the tie-in comic and not the show.

[SiegePerilous02]

It doesn't help that his attempts to get to know Conner were in the tie-in comic and not the show.

I think the massive cast and the time skips are the show's biggest weaknesses because of stuff like this.

Compared to Gargoyles and Spec. Spider-Man, it comes up short in managing the characters. I think those two having clear focus characters (Peter obvs and Goliath/Eliza for Gargs) that the other characters revolved around helped.

[mathew101281]

Young Justice is weird in that the criticism is that he isn't warm/affectionate enough towards Connor, but that also downplays that he has a right to be weirded out/feel a bit violated that his DNA was used without his consent to create a clone. I think Clark's stand-offish reaction to Connor was fine, but the execution to having him come around was drawn out too much because they wanted it to happen in the finale. And I think time skipping over a lot of their interactions didn't help.

The DCEU is both the target of at times unfair criticism in that regard, but also perpetrates one of the biggest single and most prolific offenses (Superman is important because he can kick the entire JL's ass, so he's the alpha male).

I also don't think it should be overlooked that versions like Pre-Crisis and New 52 can receive strawman arguments as well.

Superman has always been depicted as having “Standoffish” tendencies. Who in their right mind discovers they have a cousin and then decides to ship her off to an orphanage? Who is that cruel to the woman they supposedly love? His base is called the fortress of solitude. All the elements of depicting Superman as a loner have been around since the silver age. I’ve always said...

Batman is the family man that pretends to be a loner, while Superman is the loner everyone thinks is a family man.

[SiegePerilous02]

Superman has always been depicted as having “Standoffish” tendencies. Who in their right mind discovers they have a cousin and then decides to ship her off to an orphanage? Who is that cruel to the woman they supposedly love? His base is called the fortress of solitude. All the elements of depicting Superman as a loner have been around since the silver age. I’ve always said...

Batman is the family man that pretends to be a loner, while Superman is the loner everyone thinks is a family man.

Yeah but with all of DC/WB's attempts to bury the Silver Age Superman, I can see why modern audiences aren't familiar with it coming from the "perfect Boy Scout," so it might have been jarring among YJ's viewership.

Also not helped that it was told from the perspective of the kids and so naturally audiences are going to empathize with Connor more.

[RobinGA]

Clark isn't without his problems. He isn't a perfect human being (yes, he's human, but that's a battle for another day)
makes mistakes. Whether you want to put that to being an immigrant, or simply his personality.

He is often a crap dad, not exactly a great husband either. This isn't intentional, but he seems to
act as though other people (mainly Lois) will just go solve them while he goes off to save the world. Nuclear
reactor about to blow up in India? Great. Your sons need to have a heart to heart? Lois, why don't you tackle that,
while I drink a Sunflower beer.

[Agent Z]

The only sons Clark has ever had are Chris and Jon. While not perfect - no father is - he is generally much better than Bruce who is arguably the worst father in the DCU that isn't an outright villain. Even the issue with Supergirl can be excused by him not having the resources to raise her himself.

[SiegePerilous02]

Bruce should be a better father/mentor figure than Clark at least to start. It's an interesting contrast, Superman is outwardly friendly and bright but is actually more introverted and doesn't have the experience or desire to really raise someone like Kara when she quite literally falls out of the sky. Bruce is on the surface harder and more aloof, but he takes more naturally to the father figure/older brother figure role. Bruce doesn't let his walls down around a lot of people, but when he does he should do it more easily than Clark.

Once we get to the stage of Clark and Lois getting closer and getting married with a family, he should evolve more naturally into being a good father because he's more ready. So he and Bruce should be more or less on the same level as flawed but well meaning and overall good parents. But Bruce has been written as so horrifically OOC as the worst mentor ever for so long that now people think it is natural for him to be that way. I can't blame them considering the **** they've published, but Bruce being a bad father will never not be inherently wrong to me.