Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Agent Z]

Give the general reaction people had to Man of Steel and BvS, he never should have never even got a chance to START making Justice League. People weren't into what he was trying to do.

A lot more people liked Man of Steel than the internet would have you believe.

[Stanlos]

But in the past (pre-CoIE), Power Girl was the Earth-2/Earth-Two version of Kara (Earth-1/Earth-One Supergirl), and the Golden Age Superman wasn't as powerful as the Earth-1/Earth-One Superman. So Power Girl wouldn't have been quite as strong / powerful as Supergirl.

A lot fans say that about Supes but their stories don't really bear that out. After all, Superman is Superman.

[Stanlos]

in Live Action DC should be edgy to be different from Marvel, i know Snyder is controversial but he had vision

Unfortunately I did not care for his vision at all. We have a mopey, robotic and wooden Superman who is counseled that he doesn't really need to be heroic. And we get Injustice SuperMurderMan. No thank you.

We got the Punisher in Batman drag with a massive case of jealousy against Superman who goes on to trounce Superman because #crossfit and #gadgets complete with a dominating boot on his chest and the words 'you're not even a man". Then to add insult to injury Bats c*cks Superman and has a child with Lois. GTFO

And then there's Xena cosplaying as Wonder Woman who just says eff you to humanity and is massively depowered and has ALL her mythology and story potential trashed within the first 15 minutes of her movies. Nope.

Zack is good at visuals when not going overboard with PS2 cutscene level CGI and should never have been given free reign

[Agent Z]

Unfortunately I did not care for his vision at all. We have a mopey, robotic and wooden Superman who is counseled that he doesn't really need to be heroic. And we get Injustice SuperMurderMan. No thank you.

We got the Punisher in Batman drag with a massive case of jealousy against Superman who goes on to trounce Superman because #crossfit and #gadgets complete with a dominating boot on his chest and the words 'you're not even a man". Then to add insult to injury Bats c*cks Superman and has a child with Lois. GTFO

And then there's Xena cosplaying as Wonder Woman who just says eff you to humanity and is massively depowered and has ALL her mythology and story potential trashed within the first 15 minutes of her movies. Nope.

Zack is good at visuals when not going overboard with PS2 cutscene level CGI and should never have been given free reign

He was never given free reign.

The comparisons between Xena and any version of Wonder Woman that fans don't like is just a shallow criticism. Ignoring the fact that most of the tropes people associate with Xena were originated by Diana herself, Diana is not remotely a murderous conqueror who killed a child's family and had to atone for her crimes, and you not liking how the movies handled her mythology is not the same as trashing it. Calling Diana a Xena ripoff is like calling Superman a Spider-Man ripoff because he wears primary colors and his secret identity is a nerd who works at a newspaper. If anything, the person making that accusation comes across as the one lacking in knowledge of both characters.

The reason Batman beat Superman aren't even close to what you're saying and you've only further proved my point about why people actually hated the Bruce Lois idea. Ironically, this attitude is more sexist than just about anything Snyder's been accused of and is the last thing you'd expect from a Wonder Woman fan.

[HsssH]

I truly don't understand how people come up with such opinions. In a way it feels very political since politicians will often lie and act dumb to get what they want. But I don't understand what is "the goal" here?

[achilles]

A lot fans say that about Supes but their stories don't really bear that out. After all, Superman is Superman.

Well, by COIE Kal-L was throwing moons at people he didn't like, even impressing Darkseid, and being one of the few able to hurt AM. And, along with PG seemed to be on a level with SG and main SM, or even a bit above.

[the illustrious mr. kenway]

I truly don't understand how people come up with such opinions. In a way it feels very political since politicians will often lie and act dumb to get what they want. But I don't understand what is "the goal" here?

Emotions run high and people take stories too seriously.

[SiegePerilous02]

Unfortunately I did not care for his vision at all. We have a mopey, robotic and wooden Superman who is counseled that he doesn't really need to be heroic. And we get Injustice SuperMurderMan. No thank you.

We got the Punisher in Batman drag with a massive case of jealousy against Superman who goes on to trounce Superman because #crossfit and #gadgets complete with a dominating boot on his chest and the words 'you're not even a man". Then to add insult to injury Bats c*cks Superman and has a child with Lois. GTFO

And then there's Xena cosplaying as Wonder Woman who just says eff you to humanity and is massively depowered and has ALL her mythology and story potential trashed within the first 15 minutes of her movies. Nope.

Zack is good at visuals when not going overboard with PS2 cutscene level CGI and should never have been given free reign

I wouldn't compare modern Wonder Woman to Xena. Mostly because it does a disservice to Xena.

She had a much cooler head than the Diana we got written by Geoff Johns in early New 52, for example.

He was never given free reign.

The comparisons between Xena and any version of Wonder Woman that fans don't like is just a shallow criticism. Ignoring the fact that most of the tropes people associate with Xena were originated by Diana herself, Diana is not remotely a murderous conqueror who killed a child's family and had to atone for her crimes, and you not liking how the movies handled her mythology is not the same as trashing it. Calling Diana a Xena ripoff is like calling Superman a Spider-Man ripoff because he wears primary colors and his secret identity is a nerd who works at a newspaper. If anything, the person making that accusation comes across as the one lacking in knowledge of both characters.

The reason Batman beat Superman aren't even close to what you're saying and you've only further proved my point about why people actually hated the Bruce Lois idea. Ironically, this attitude is more sexist than just about anything Snyder's been accused of and is the last thing you'd expect from a Wonder Woman fan.

I'd say Xena has more in common with Red Sonja than she does Diana.

Beyond being set in ancient Greece and a vague connection to the Amazons (though that's more Gabrielle's thing), Xena doesn't have many tropes associated with Diana.

And in fairness to the "c*ck" thing, wasn't it Snyder's fans who called the CW Superman that in the first place? of course two wrongs don't make a right.

But the Bruce/Lois thing was always deeply stupid.

[Adekis]

A lot fans say that about Supes but their stories don't really bear that out. After all, Superman is Superman.

This is true, but very inconsistently true.

In the first story I'm aware of where Earth Two Superman meets Earth One Superman, (Justice League of America # 74) they are almost literally the exact same. I mean Superman-Two gets mind controlled to fight the other, and if not for the dialogue tags helpfully keeping you up to speed, you would never know which was which. They have the same builds, same face, same hair color, everything - and according to Superman-One "Superman-Two's as strong as I am!"

Only later when Gerry Conway, Paul Levitz, Keith Giffen and Wallace Wood revamped Earth-Two Superman in All-Star Comics # 62, did he become a more deliberate recreation of the early Golden Age projected into the then-present, and only at that point did he become weaker than Superman-One.

I have a theory about this. I may have detailed it before, but here we go again.

Most Justice Societeers of Earth Two aren't direct counterparts of a Justice Leaguer from Earth One. Jay Garrick isn't Barry Allen, etc.
A lot of the Super-People don't even have indirect counterparts, like Doctor Fate or Martian Manhunter, who exist only in one universe.

Meanwhile, most of the Justice Leaguers with indirect counterparts, like Barry and Hal, came into being in the late '50s, with interrupted publishing histories for their titles.

But characters like Superman and Wonder Woman, who were published all the way through the fifties, took longer to be integrated into "Earth Two". In my opinion, eventually it occurs to a writer that Earth 2 probably would have a Superman, a Wonder Woman, but what would they be like? Well, since the characters were published consistently the whole time - presumably they'd be exactly the same on Earth Two as they are on Earth One, right? Any retcons that happened to Earth One Superman would have happened to Earth Two Superman as well, any power creep would presumably effect both of them! And so, in JLA # 74, Superman meets his exact double and nobody thinks twice about it.

At the time of course there wasn't even really a "sliding timeline" on Earth One - Mort Weisinger allegedly had a rule that Superboy stories had to be set prior to 1938, even though it didn't come up much. There's even a Supergirl story where she time travels back to when Kal was still Superboy, (Adventure Comics #278) and television has explicitly not been invented yet! So presumably everything that happened in the Golden Age did happen to Earth One Superman more-or-less as written, give or take some inevitable retcons!

Later on in the mid '70s though, the sliding timeline was coming into vogue, and Conway et. al. came up with the conceit of basically canonizing weird inconsistencies from the early Golden Age as "differences" between Earth Two and Earth One. As such when Superman appears in All-Star Comics # 62, he never flies but leaps tall buildings, takes a few more hits, and has a squarer jaw with that Clint Eastwood squint - a la Joe Shuster!

vUtiQ61.jpg

[skyvolt2000]

Give the general reaction people had to Man of Steel and BvS, he never should have never even got a chance to START making Justice League. People weren't into what he was trying to do.

Well if you are trying to have stuff already made based on what you have seen or think of previous movies or the subject matter-starting early in filming happens.

I mean Avengers Endgame was well into production when Black Panther came out and there was PLENTY of regret about that. Because nobody expected Panther to make a billion. Antman number yes but not a billion and it was too late to change anything in the films.

[phantom1592]

This is true, but very inconsistently true.

In the first story I'm aware of where Earth Two Superman meets Earth One Superman, (Justice League of America # 74) they are almost literally the exact same. I mean Superman-Two gets mind controlled to fight the other, and if not for the dialogue tags helpfully keeping you up to speed, you would never know which was which. They have the same builds, same face, same hair color, everything - and according to Superman-One "Superman-Two's as strong as I am!"

Only later when Gerry Conway, Paul Levitz, Keith Giffen and Wallace Wood revamped Earth-Two Superman in All-Star Comics # 62, did he become a more deliberate recreation of the early Golden Age projected into the then-present, and only at that point did he become weaker than Superman-One.

I have a theory about this. I may have detailed it before, but here we go again.

Most Justice Societeers of Earth Two aren't direct counterparts of a Justice Leaguer from Earth One. Jay Garrick isn't Barry Allen, etc.
A lot of the Super-People don't even have indirect counterparts, like Doctor Fate or Martian Manhunter, who exist only in one universe.

Meanwhile, most of the Justice Leaguers with indirect counterparts, like Barry and Hal, came into being in the late '50s, with interrupted publishing histories for their titles.

But characters like Superman and Wonder Woman, who were published all the way through the fifties, took longer to be integrated into "Earth Two". In my opinion, eventually it occurs to a writer that Earth 2 probably would have a Superman, a Wonder Woman, but what would they be like? Well, since the characters were published consistently the whole time - presumably they'd be exactly the same on Earth Two as they are on Earth One, right? Any retcons that happened to Earth One Superman would have happened to Earth Two Superman as well, any power creep would presumably effect both of them! And so, in JLA # 74, Superman meets his exact double and nobody thinks twice about it.

At the time of course there wasn't even really a "sliding timeline" on Earth One - Mort Weisinger allegedly had a rule that Superboy stories had to be set prior to 1938, even though it didn't come up much. There's even a Supergirl story where she time travels back to when Kal was still Superboy, (Adventure Comics #278) and television has explicitly not been invented yet! So presumably everything that happened in the Golden Age did happen to Earth One Superman more-or-less as written, give or take some inevitable retcons!

Later on in the mid '70s though, the sliding timeline was coming into vogue, and Conway et. al. came up with the conceit of basically canonizing weird inconsistencies from the early Golden Age as "differences" between Earth Two and Earth One. As such when Superman appears in All-Star Comics # 62, he never flies but leaps tall buildings, takes a few more hits, and has a squarer jaw with that Clint Eastwood squint - a la Joe Shuster!

vUtiQ61.jpg

I like to pull out the DC Comics Presents Annual #1 (1982) for this image. 98185267_145113020412683_291516120622432256_n.jpg

There's always been inconsistentcy in the comics. But here it's pretty straightforward that E-2 is weaker than E1, but it's because he's older and slowed down a bit. Not sure that would apply to PG yet or not. Either way, yeah, they retconned it again by COIE. However, this is still my favorite version of an aging Superman.

Ironically BOTH written by Marv Wolfman.

[achilles]

So...what year and issue did Kal-L and PG get to fly and have heat vision and all the other extras on level with their main universe counterparts, and was it sudden, or did they build up to it gradually?

[Adekis]

So...what year and issue did Kal-L and PG get to fly and have heat vision and all the other extras on level with their main universe counterparts, and was it sudden, or did they build up to it gradually?

Since Superman-Two was reintroduced in Justice League of America # 73 under basically the assumption that he would be identical to his mainstream counterpart, he can fly in that issue, he's weak to magic, and the next issue has Superman-One explicitly say they're equally strong. Not totally sure if he ever uses heat vision or not! Conway's version never flies and seems weaker, but as phantom1592 pointed out, Wolfman's does seem to fly but is still weaker - for the different reason of being older, rather than by allusion to the '30s version as Conway had been. And I'm sure there are other variations for different writers.

Overall it's not a linear progression from weaker to stronger, or fewer powers to more powers. He started with both all the powers and the scale of Superman One potentially on the table, and to emphasize his Golden Age connection or the way time's passage has impacted him, some writers have opted to treat him with more or fewer restrictions - but afaik It's on a case-by-case basis, depending on the writer.

[Tzigone]

I think it makes sense after years and years of stories to try to add something new/elaborate like that or so the thinking goes.

I think it mostly just ends up covoluted and messy. And retconning important events of the past, and sometimes even changing characters' entire natures. Plus they have a tendency to take purely sci-fi things and make them more mystical, and I generally prefer the sci-fi.

[jetengine]

Controversial opinion?

Dc can't have two Teen Teams, or if they do they need to be radically different.

Young Justice and Teen Titans do exactly the same thing and each only rose to prominence without the other.