Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Stanlos]

I was thinking about that as I sampled fantasy fair from other countries. It seems like for American comics the idea is we never move beyond this one moment in time. Whereas with a number of other properties there is almost exactly what you describe unless the characters were long lived or had that time dial thing.

[Agent Z]

Your favorite character doesn't have to be invincible just because they're your favorite character. Mine neither.

I find that people who say this are often the ones who already don't have to worry about their favorite character not being invincible anyway.

[mathew101281]

I was thinking about that as I sampled fantasy fair from other countries. It seems like for American comics the idea is we never move beyond this one moment in time. Whereas with a number of other properties there is almost exactly what you describe unless the characters were long lived or had that time dial thing.

That’s one of the reasons why I feel Manga is a healthier industry model then American comics. American comics seems to built to keep 80 and 60 year old characters relevant while manga seems to more focused on creating new franchises. Sure old franchises still have a place in manga, but their comes a point we’re they aren’t the primary driver of sales anymore. Plus all manga eventually ends. Could you imagine if DC tried to end Batman? The company would collapse. On the other hand look at Shonen Jump, sure stuff like Naruto, One piece, etc. all end eventually. No one thinks the company is going to die when they do.

[Stanlos]

That’s one of the reasons why I feel Manga is a healthier industry model then American comics. American comics seems to built to keep 80 and 60 year old characters relevant while manga seems to more focused on creating new franchises. Sure old franchises still have a place in manga, but their comes a point we’re they aren’t the primary driver of sales anymore. Plus all manga eventually ends. Could you imagine if DC tried to end Batman? The company would collapse. On the other hand look at Shonen Jump, sure stuff like Naruto, One piece, etc. all end eventually. No one thinks the company is going to die when they do.

That was my assessment as well! And as they go and later chapters or related media tie-ins flash back you still get the OGs but you enrich the tapestry of the verse.

[Jackalope89]

That’s one of the reasons why I feel Manga is a healthier industry model then American comics. American comics seems to built to keep 80 and 60 year old characters relevant while manga seems to more focused on creating new franchises. Sure old franchises still have a place in manga, but their comes a point we’re they aren’t the primary driver of sales anymore. Plus all manga eventually ends. Could you imagine if DC tried to end Batman? The company would collapse. On the other hand look at Shonen Jump, sure stuff like Naruto, One piece, etc. all end eventually. No one thinks the company is going to die when they do.

I mean, I guess we ignore that Dragon Ball has come back in manga, anime, and movies (video games and a rare special still happened) came back. And, for example, the Super Broly film, despite being a limited release in the US, came only 3rd to the original Pokemon movies in terms of money earned.

[Robanker]

I find that people who say this are often the ones who already don't have to worry about their favorite character not being invincible anyway.

What are you talking about? Superman is the most vulnerable hero there is.

[phonogram12]

What are you talking about? Superman is the most vulnerable hero there is.

In all sincerity, he has often in the past had his butt handed to him just to show how powerful his opponent was. Not to mention that his powers are also often downplayed in a team setting.

And this is why sometimes I would simply prefer it if every hero were to inhabit their own universe. These pissing matches are tiresome to say the least.

[Ascended]

That’s one of the reasons why I feel Manga is a healthier industry model then American comics. American comics seems to built to keep 80 and 60 year old characters relevant while manga seems to more focused on creating new franchises.

To a point, yes. But in a lot of ways it's apples and oranges. Despite the obvious similarities manga and American comics are two very different things, and hold very different positions within their home cultures. Manga is read by Japanese people of all kinds, there's a manga for everyone no matter who you are or what you like. They're easy to find and cheap. American comics are still viewed by most people as kid stuff (despite the movies dominating theaters, which just shows how poorly the Big 2 are at proper marketing), they're hard to find and expensive.

American superheroes, at least among the Big 2, aren't literary characters, they're farmable IP designed to sell t-shirts and lunch boxes, and have been since Superman proved popular enough for a corporate interest to purchase him. For America, it's not about the fiction, it's about the merchandizing.

Manga is built on the more traditional literary format where audiences expect the story to eventually end. Some exceptions exist, like Dragon Ball, but even that wasn't meant to last forever and everything since....Cell?.....has been them milking the IP. There's nothing of "literary integrity" or "I had another story to tell" to it; Goku sells so the brand remains active, and the franchise has slipped into the American comic model of a endlessly recycled narrative. Most manga don't do that, which makes them easier to get into since you start with volume 1 and go until you hit the finish line. But there's drawbacks too; few manga have as fleshed out and varied a mythos as American superheroes, and few can challenge the sheer amount of revenue you can accumulate after eighty years of constant marketing and merchandising. I'm not a big manga guy, but I find that manga is easier to get into, but less rewarding long-term.

And in a lot of ways, that's the situation American comics are simply stuck with now. It's much like the New Coke debacle. Coke was falling in market share and profit, getting edged out by Pepsi, so they changed the formula and made New Coke. And in blind taste tests, New Coke beat old Coke, and even Pepsi. In every way, it seemed like a slam dunk effort; reinvigorate the brand, get competitive again, fix and improve on the old recipe.

But it failed, in one of the most spectacular examples of corporate failure in the country. And not because New Coke was a subpar product, but because it wasn't what people expected, and it wasn't what they wanted when they wanted a Coke. Coke, for Americans, was comfort food. Familiar, classic, stable, not something to be changed. It wasn't the product that was the problem, it was consumer expectation. Comics are stuck with that now. Superman and Batman, many of Marvel and DC's big names and money making IP, they're global icons recognized everywhere. There likely isn't a country on earth where you won't find a t-shirt with an "S" shield on it. Even North Korea has them, though many of its people seem ignorant of what and who Superman actually is. And when audiences want Superman, they want something familiar and classic (even if their idea on what familiar and classic means isn't actually true to the source material at all); changes are met with resistance if not outright hostility, and acceptance of new ideas and status quo's are slow in coming.

Had American comics followed manga's example with limited runs and heroes who age, die, or simply finish their story? Odds are the genre wouldn't have lasted this long and none of us would be here. Guys like Clark and Bruce probably would have faded into relative obscurity like their pulp predecessors did. Maybe that would have ultimately been good for everyone, and we'd have more characters and a more robust market. I think it more likely that comics would've simply died out, personally (they've come close a few times too), but you never know. But odds are only die-hard nerd historians would know much more about Superman than the fact that he existed in the 40's, and I don't think a world without Superman would be a better place. Even as a purely fictional creation in a genre most Americans write off as "kid's stuff" we're all aware of how the character has had a positive impact on history.

And yes, the piss poor way America treats its creative talent has definitely played a role in things too. Hard to blame someone for not putting in their best effort when they get paid a pittance, have no ownership of the material, and watch their hard work be undone by the next guy. It's no wonder most writers save their best stuff for publishers like Image, which encourages and supports creative ownership.

[TheRay]

I think there are a lot of times where writers will not mention something or imply things that took place not directly in the readers purview, but that doesn’t mean it’s a plot hole.

[marhawkman]

I think there are a lot of times where writers will not mention something or imply things that took place not directly in the readers purview, but that doesn’t mean it’s a plot hole.

Yeah, You can categorize it as white/black/grey.

White: neatly explained chronology
Grey: not everything is explained, but it doesn't have obvious contradictions.
Black: certain parts of the story are logically impossible because they invalidate other parts of the story.

White is ideal, but realistically.. every story has a grey border. You can't write out an entire universe. you can do a framework, but you can't fill in all of the details.
black is a problem. A good example of black is how some characters had multiple origin stories that can't be true at the same time. Thus black means writers have to pick and choose what to use, since they can't use it all.

[TheRay]

The case of black is usually the justification for the existence of a multiverse, which is fine by me. Also, a multiverse can also be something found in the grey area.

[marhawkman]

The case of black is usually the justification for the existence of a multiverse, which is fine by me. Also, a multiverse can also be something found in the grey area.

Oh, but Multiverse precludes black unless special cases come up. for example: No aspect of Lisa Kent's backstory conflicts with anything in Earth One. Why? Because Lisa Kent is not from Earth One and has never met anyone from Earth One. The only story with her was in Earth-91.

The black section is (for example) when it's two conflicting explanations for how something happened in Earth One. Such as the multiple backstories for Donna Troy. She can't be a semi-random Human, a copy of Diana from when she was a child and also a creation of Derinoe.

[Stanlos]

Thunder and Lightning are so cool. Like so many other great characters I have no idea where they are these days amid all the Darking and Crisising

[king81992]

Thunder and Lightning are so cool. Like so many other great characters I have no idea where they are these days amid all the Darking and Crisising

DC isn't using them for whatever reason.

[TheRay]

The black section is (for example) when it's two conflicting explanations for how something happened in Earth One. Such as the multiple backstories for Donna Troy. She can't be a semi-random Human, a copy of Diana from when she was a child and also a creation of Derinoe.

Hence why those contradictions create new Earths. Most of the time, though, a writer isn’t going to be interested in writing about that Earth unless there’s more to it.