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  1. #31
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Seems to me they were indeed in a bad place. They'd tried all kinds of things before Crisis including cutting his powers in half, and neutalizing Kryptonite.
    Well, I know that the rule at the time was that the Superman books had to remain "kid friendly". So whereas Batman was allowed to advance in relationships and even be shown in bed with women (Silver St. Cloud), a Superman book that so much as hinted that he and Lois slept together had to be edited. I know that was one of the reasons Maggin left the books.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  2. #32
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Things must have been dire back then for them to consider it. Most of us have no way of knowing, we weren't there, but with the benefit of hindsight, it doesn't seem like it was a good decision in the long run at all. Most of their creative overhauls of Superman could have been done without a reboot. Moving the fictional universe forward organically would have been preferable, and the character wouldn't be paying for it to this day. Same with Wonder Woman, who may have it even worse.
    I know that Flash was on the verge of cancellation and I think so was WW. The Super-books weren't doing much better. Hence the reason Wally took over and she got a reboot. Some have suggested that just putting Byrne on them alone would have been enough to save them but obviously there's no way to know that for sure. And he was willing to work within the context of the continuity of the time. The biggest problem the post-Crisis universe had was the insistence on keeping certain elements from the old continuity. So you ended up with a Wonder Girl who predates a Wonder Woman and a Legion inspired by a Superboy who never existed. As many problems as was created for Superman post-Crisis, the rest of the DCU suffered more just so he could get a reboot that stripped away story material.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  3. #33
    Astonishing Member superduperman's Avatar
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    double post...again.
    Now listen to me, Clark! This great strength of yours--you've got to hide it from people or they'll be scared of you!

  4. #34
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    -Duke's existence brings out the ugliness out of Tim Drake fans. (It causes me to stay far away from Tim and his fans)

    -Killing Barry Allen was a mistake.

    -Fictional cities should be abandoned all together. like Agent Z said, they have no unique identity. Seriously, what's the difference between Keystone, Star City and Burnside?
    Imagine being proud to have negative traits. I canít relate.

    DC: Justice League, The Flash, Justice League Dark, Superman, Action Comics, Green Arrow, Justice League Odyssey, The Terrifics, Teen Titans, Titans, Brimstone, Female Furies, Damage, Heroes In Crisis

    Marvel: The Punisher, Cosmic Ghost Rider, Venom, X-23, Cloak and Dagger, Jessica Jones, Sentry

    Indies: Unnatural, Jeepers Creepers, Project Superpowers, Black Hammer, Ninja-K

  5. #35
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    -Duke's existence brings out the ugliness out of Tim Drake fans. (It causes me to stay far away from Tim and his fans)

    -Killing Barry Allen was a mistake.

    -Fictional cities should be abandoned all together. like Agent Z said, they have no unique identity. Seriously, what's the difference between Keystone, Star City and Burnside?
    Imagine being proud to have negative traits. I canít relate.

    DC: Justice League, The Flash, Justice League Dark, Superman, Action Comics, Green Arrow, Justice League Odyssey, The Terrifics, Teen Titans, Titans, Brimstone, Female Furies, Damage, Heroes In Crisis

    Marvel: The Punisher, Cosmic Ghost Rider, Venom, X-23, Cloak and Dagger, Jessica Jones, Sentry

    Indies: Unnatural, Jeepers Creepers, Project Superpowers, Black Hammer, Ninja-K

  6. #36
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    I'd rather keep the fictional cities and get rid of the real cities. What use is New York when you got Gotham and Metropolis? Why Seattle when there's Star City? I'll take Fawcett City over Philadelphia.
    celebrating 50 years of 4 beatles crossing a zebra

  7. #37
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Kelly View Post
    I'd rather keep the fictional cities and get rid of the real cities. What use is New York when you got Gotham and Metropolis? Why Seattle when there's Star City? I'll take Fawcett City over Philadelphia.
    But compared to Gotham and Metropolis. Those other cities are generic. There are so many places you can name in Gotham and Metropolis. Star City and Fawcett are just kinda there.
    Imagine being proud to have negative traits. I canít relate.

    DC: Justice League, The Flash, Justice League Dark, Superman, Action Comics, Green Arrow, Justice League Odyssey, The Terrifics, Teen Titans, Titans, Brimstone, Female Furies, Damage, Heroes In Crisis

    Marvel: The Punisher, Cosmic Ghost Rider, Venom, X-23, Cloak and Dagger, Jessica Jones, Sentry

    Indies: Unnatural, Jeepers Creepers, Project Superpowers, Black Hammer, Ninja-K

  8. #38
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by docmidnite View Post
    Heh. I always wanted to see a World/Earth where CoIE never happened but time moved on. Something like this maybe...

    - Hal, Barry, and Ray remain retired like they were retired before/during CoIE.

    - Wally visits Barry in the future (where Barry stabilizes Wally's powers so they are no longer killing him) and Wally goes back to the present where he takes over the Flash mantle while Barry is retired in the future with Iris.

    - John Stewart is the only GL in Sector 2814 while Hal is still retired and Guy is still in his coma.

    - Superman marries Lois, and they leave Earth to spend their retirement alone together (leaving Kara Zor-El and Black Lightning as Metropolis' protectors).

    - With Superman retired, Firestorm becomes Earth's most powerful superhero.

    - Batman eventually gets offed by the Joker, but instead of taking over the mantle, Dick stays as Nightwing and does things his own way.

    - Kara Zor-El and Barbara Gordon/Batgirl form a World's Finest pairing in honour of their mentors and protect the world taking on the biggest threats that might come up to Earth.

    - Ray Palmer stays in the jungle, retired with the new love of his life, and Professor Stein then takes over as the world's leading expert in Atomic Theory.

    - Ollie eventually dies, leaves everything to Roy, and Queen Industries goes into the black ops business under Roy as Arsenal.

    - Katar and Shayera retire and go back to Thanagar, and Charlie Parker/Golden Eagle takes over their assignment.

    - Arthur retires and takes the throne full-time, and makes Tempest Atlantis' ambassador to the surface world.

    - Diana takes over as Queen of Paradise Island and Donna's the number #1 heroine on Earth.

    - Changling is still the last survivor of the original Doom Patrol.

    - JLDetroit's Steel becomes more like DC's version of The Shield while Vic/Cyborg eventually becomes the smartest man on Earth.

    A new type of super team arises (one made up of from the W/P Titans, Outsiders, and JL Detroiters as well as others) led by Nightwing
    A lot of this sounds potentially way more interesting than what we got, and would have caused less of a mess. The Titans were poised to take over for their mentors as the premiere superhero team on Earth, it would have been the best for them if they were allowed to do so without replacing their mentors' identities (with maybe the exception of Wally as the Flash). But that would require DC to take a BIG risk and phase out all their classic characters for new ones, and I can see why they wouldn't do that, even if some of them were struggling at the time. They could have always left a few titles like Titans in the pre-Crisis Earth-1 universe while rebooting everything else in a new continuity from scratch, but that would defeat the purpose of their whole "multiple earths make everything too confusing!" (which was BS).

    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I know that Flash was on the verge of cancellation and I think so was WW. The Super-books weren't doing much better. Hence the reason Wally took over and she got a reboot. Some have suggested that just putting Byrne on them alone would have been enough to save them but obviously there's no way to know that for sure. And he was willing to work within the context of the continuity of the time. The biggest problem the post-Crisis universe had was the insistence on keeping certain elements from the old continuity. So you ended up with a Wonder Girl who predates a Wonder Woman and a Legion inspired by a Superboy who never existed. As many problems as was created for Superman post-Crisis, the rest of the DCU suffered more just so he could get a reboot that stripped away story material.
    Yeah, there really is no way of knowing for sure. We do know the end result of what they did do, and it's a mess, so the path not taken is always going to be more appealing for some.

    Byrne was a big get for them at the time. Him overhauling the Super-mythos with a new artistic direction while not getting rid of the history may have worked, and we'd be better off. Perez on Wonder Woman is the same thing. In both runs, the better issues are when they are just telling stories instead rehashing origins while changing things around.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Anti-Geek View Post
    But compared to Gotham and Metropolis. Those other cities are generic. There are so many places you can name in Gotham and Metropolis. Star City and Fawcett are just kinda there.
    The real world cities are just kind of there too. The Teen Titans were based in New York during their best run...nobody talks about New York as a highlight for the stories. Johns moved them to San Francisco in his run and the cartoon put them in the fictional Jump City. You wouldn't notice a difference. And Wonder Woman's default home away from home that they keep returning to is Washington D.C because Boston, New York and London didn't really offer anything different.

  9. #39
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    When I read POWER OF SHAZAM--the book by Jerry Ordway--I thought it was set in the 1930s and 1940s--however when the comic book series of the same name began, I realized that Fawcett City was supposed to exist in modern day; however, the city continued to have a quasi-1940s style. So Fawcett was quite different from the rest of the DCU cities. In STARMAN, Robinson made Opal City a mish mash of several cities so it could be east/west/north/south all at once. Star City stated out as just another New York type city, but it was eventually moved to the Pacific Northwest and it has aspects of Portland, Seattle and Vancouver all mashed together.

    In point of fact, on the CW, Starling City/Star City is really the section of Vancouver east of Granville (to Main Steet) and north of Robson (to the waterfront) that includes Chinatown and Japan town, but also the shuttered main post office, the central library and cathedral square (a lot of the action happens on the same four city blocks).
    celebrating 50 years of 4 beatles crossing a zebra

  10. #40
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    Quote Originally Posted by superduperman View Post
    I'll be perfectly honest, I don't like Geoff Johns. He has too much power and his ideas are a mixed bag at best. His Superman origin sucked and this weird insistence that every hero has to have a tragic origin is stupid. Apparently Barry Allen getting doused in chemicals and gaining super speed isn't a good enough reason to become a super-hero, his mom has to die to inspire him to become a forensic scientist too. Ditto Hal and his father. Some ideas, like having Luthor be Conner's human donor, are kind of clever. But a lot of his stuff just sounds like turning the mainstream universe into his own personal fan fiction. The Cyborg thing bothers me more than it should. I guess because I think his reasons for doing it were stupid. He liked the late era Super Powers show.
    Agree completely with this. Not a fan of Johns either. He's ruined as much as he has helped IMO.

  11. #41
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Things must have been dire back then for them to consider it. Most of us have no way of knowing, we weren't there, but with the benefit of hindsight, it doesn't seem like it was a good decision in the long run at all.
    Here's what writer Marv Wolfman had to say about it from The Hollywood Reporter:

    Marv Wolfman says he first thought of the story in 1981 while waiting for other creators and editors to show up to Penn Station in New York to take a train to a convention in Pennsylvania.

    "When everyone else finally showed up, I narrated what I had of the story to them and they all thought it was strong enough to pitch to DC the following Monday," says Wolfman. "Because we decided to hold it back until DCís 50th anniversary, in 1985, I had a lot of time to slowly layer in the plot and find and fix all the problems, showing it pays to take the time to do it right rather than doing it fast."

    Wolfman says despite the bold move, he had no hesitation about ripping the universe apart, with DC sales flagging aside from his other hit work on Teen Titans.

    "We needed to do something big and surprising to show the readers that this was a new DC Comics," he says. If you donít take risks and try something new the readers, inundated with more media than ever before, will give up and turn their attention elsewhere."

  12. #42
    Astonishing Member Overhazard's Avatar
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    Val-Zod could have been, nay, should have been DC's Miles Morales. They messed up Earth 2 and derailed his character so much, it bugs me to think about it.

  13. #43
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    Crisis and reboot were a great idea. Execution was lacking due to mediocre ideas (The legion is always a pita this way tbh)

  14. #44
    Extraordinary Member SiegePerilous02's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caj View Post
    Here's what writer Marv Wolfman had to say about it from The Hollywood Reporter:

    Marv Wolfman says he first thought of the story in 1981 while waiting for other creators and editors to show up to Penn Station in New York to take a train to a convention in Pennsylvania.

    "When everyone else finally showed up, I narrated what I had of the story to them and they all thought it was strong enough to pitch to DC the following Monday," says Wolfman. "Because we decided to hold it back until DCís 50th anniversary, in 1985, I had a lot of time to slowly layer in the plot and find and fix all the problems, showing it pays to take the time to do it right rather than doing it fast."

    Wolfman says despite the bold move, he had no hesitation about ripping the universe apart, with DC sales flagging aside from his other hit work on Teen Titans.

    "We needed to do something big and surprising to show the readers that this was a new DC Comics," he says. If you donít take risks and try something new the readers, inundated with more media than ever before, will give up and turn their attention elsewhere."
    Wolfman himself seems to have come to regret at least some of COIE's fallout, at least when it came to its effects on stories he worked on. Quoted from Wikipedia:

    "I wrote the original Donna Troy origin story back in the first Titans run. She had never had one and was, in fact, not a "real" character (if you can call any of them real). She was a computer simulation of Wonder Woman as a girl. That story also named her Donna Troy and set up everything that followed. Unfortunately, after Crisis on Infinite Earths and the Wonder Woman revamp, we had to go back and redo it again as a brand new Wonder Woman being born on Earth could not have rescued the girl from the burning building. I wish we had been able to keep it as I think it's gone insane now. I just wanted a simple origin story. I came up with the original, and then [in "Who is Donna Troy?"] George [Pťrez] and I simply elaborated on what had been done, giving her real knowledge of who she was. I would love to say that everything after "Who is Donna Troy?" should be forgotten, but that's not the way continuity works, sadly."

    He was right that risks needed to be taken or else there would be no rewards. But surely risks can be taken without nuking what came before? I think stuff like killing off Barry and Kara were pretty big risks and were well done overall that set the stage for obvious changes and story progressions.

    Not to mention him and George turned the Titans franchise around by taking risks and doing new things without the need to reboot anything. Surely other franchises could benefit from similar storytelling?

  15. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by SiegePerilous02 View Post
    Wolfman himself seems to have come to regret at least some of COIE's fallout, at least when it came to its effects on stories he worked on. Quoted from Wikipedia:

    "I wrote the original Donna Troy origin story back in the first Titans run. She had never had one and was, in fact, not a "real" character (if you can call any of them real). She was a computer simulation of Wonder Woman as a girl. That story also named her Donna Troy and set up everything that followed. Unfortunately, after Crisis on Infinite Earths and the Wonder Woman revamp, we had to go back and redo it again as a brand new Wonder Woman being born on Earth could not have rescued the girl from the burning building. I wish we had been able to keep it as I think it's gone insane now. I just wanted a simple origin story. I came up with the original, and then [in "Who is Donna Troy?"] George [Pťrez] and I simply elaborated on what had been done, giving her real knowledge of who she was. I would love to say that everything after "Who is Donna Troy?" should be forgotten, but that's not the way continuity works, sadly."

    He was right that risks needed to be taken or else there would be no rewards. But surely risks can be taken without nuking what came before? I think stuff like killing off Barry and Kara were pretty big risks and were well done overall that set the stage for obvious changes and story progressions.

    Not to mention him and George turned the Titans franchise around by taking risks and doing new things without the need to reboot anything. Surely other franchises could benefit from similar storytelling?
    How ironic that it was George Perez who ended up writing the revamped Wonder Woman book that threw the Wonder Girl origin out the window. I've seen several posts on this board that have suggested that everything - Wonder Girl, Justice Society, World War II - could've all stayed intact had Perez just made Wonder Woman come to Man's World back in the 40s. Her Amazon storyline could've stayed the same, she would just be much older. Not that it would've matter about being older when she is ageless. Missed opportunities.

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