Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Stanlos]

Question:

Why can Batman stay 29/30 forever but the Young Justice kids had to go ftom 11 to 19 and hooking up in barns?

[Stanlos]

No, you're right.

...
Tim figured out who Batman was, who his allies were, and realized that Jason's death was pushing Bruce into a downward spiral. Tim went looking for Bruce to offer his services as a new Robin. Tim's the guy who made it happen and has agency in the story.

So yeah Tim's the most intentional Robin. Before Damian anyway, who essentially came looking to claim his "birthright."

Thanks, Ascended! Tim is IMHO the best Robin because he grasped destiny by the horns. I like that aspect of a character origin which is why I prefer Byrne's origin for Cassie over the Zeus love child retcon but admire how the two were woven together. After all Cassie actions were still Cassie's as she did not know of the divine lineage

[Ascended]

Tim didn't start out offering his services as a new Robin to Bruce (unless that was a later retcon).
Tim tried to get Dick to go back to being Robin to work with Bruce again, but Dick wouldn't do that. Tim's becoming Robin was a last resort strategy that wasn't originally planned for by Tim.

True, but I was trying to provide the abridged version.

Question:

Why can Batman stay 29/30 forever but the Young Justice kids had to go ftom 11 to 19 and hooking up in barns?

Technically, Bruce and everyone else has aged up just as much as the kids. But the difference between 14 and 19 is much bigger and more obvious than the difference between 30 and 35, or 35 and 40.

In fact, in current canon Bruce and Clark are both 40 at least, if not a few years older.

Thanks, Ascended! Tim is IMHO the best Robin because he grasped destiny by the horns.

Happy to oblige! And yeah, I agree, Tim is the best Robin. I love Dick Grayson, he's my second favorite DC character. But I think Tim is what elevated the role of "Robin" from a sidekick into an independent hero capable of doing his own thing. I wish the guy would move on into a new role and name, since Damian isn't gonna let go of "Robin" for anything less than a pointy eared cowl, but Tim's the guy who made Robin a solo star.

[ayanestar]

You guys must have not read any (good) stories with Dick as Robin if you think Tim is the one that "elevated the role of Robin from a sidekick into an independent hero capable of doing his own thing". I can't believe some of you really believe that Tim is the guy that made Robin a "solo star" like are we really just going to ignore Dick's legacy like this now? I would argue creating someone like Tim, who was so 'perfect' at being a Robin, is what is keeping his character from moving on from the role because that's all what writers are comfortable writing him as. He will never be able to move on to something else because no writer believes he is capable of being his own hero. Tim's whole personality trait is him being Robin, that's all he has going for him lmao and that's my controversial opinion for you all

[MajorHoy]

. . . but Tim's the guy who made Robin a solo star.

Eh, that's not exactly true.

Tim may have been the first of the Robin's to have his own long-running, self-titled comic book series, but Dick also was a "solo star" in his own solo feature back in the day.

[dmhaight]

I know this couldn't happen in practical terms given the focus of DC (company) resources on what they perceive to the most profitable characters, but my #1 wish list item at this point would be to re-align the DC Multiverse to allow for the existence of each era's prime characters on their own:

1. The JSA and like characters (All-Star Squadron, Infinity Inc., etc.) would be set on Earth-2.
2. The Justice League, New Teen Titans (aka Nightwing, Donna Troy, Raven, Starfire, Cyborg, etc.), Outsiders, Doom Patrol, and other like characters from the Silver and Bronze Ages would be set on Earth-1.
3. Captain Marvel (aka Shazam) and his family and like characters (including Black Adam, Dr. Savana, etc.) would be set on Earth-S.
4. The 90's replacement characters (Kyle Rayner, Connor Hawke, Tim Drake, Cassie Sandsmark, Connor Kent, etc.) would be on their own Earth.
5. The new replacement characters (Jon Kent, Yara, Jace Fox, etc.) would be on their own Earth.

The older Earths (the ones with characters pre-dating the Crisis on Infinite Earths) would start from that period onward. The newer Earths can start at whatever periods make the most sense (e.g. the 90s Earth could start around the time when the core characters from that era started to fade in popularity or get pushed into the background by whatever cosmic reset happened at the time).
New characters can be added to each of the Earths. Characters with the ability to traverse worlds/times can travel the Multiverse, but it shouldn't be an every day occurrence (a semi-annual event perhaps?)

[phonogram12]

What are the Soon To Be Deads fighting right now?

I'm thinking more in the broader scheme. I'll be honest, unless DC starts embracing more diverse voices (bone chilling, I know), I really think they're going to be a shell of what they were in 20 years time.

Also what is an example of the thin coats of paint?

Geoff Johns and other guys who seem to only be interested in rewriting their favorite stories from when they were a kid. Not moving forward = standing still and that's not how you get ahead.

So yeah Tim's the most intentional Robin. Before Damian anyway, who essentially came looking to claim his "birthright."

God, and this is the reason the only time I've ever been able to stand him was during Tomasi and Gleason's Batman & Robin run where Bruce was there to put him in his place. He's so insufferable and entitled.

[Aahz]

You guys must have not read any (good) stories with Dick as Robin if you think Tim is the one that "elevated the role of Robin from a sidekick into an independent hero capable of doing his own thing". I can't believe some of you really believe that Tim is the guy that made Robin a "solo star" like are we really just going to ignore Dick's legacy like this now?

Dicks best solo stories as Robin are imo all retroactive ones that have been written after Tim took over the mantle.
When you are including Teen Titans stories into that, in the best ones Dick is allready an adult, pretty near to switching to Nightwing, those are not really classical Robin stories.

But imo pre crisis Jason, was the one where they modernized how to write Robin.

[John Venus]

Dick did have solo series back in the Golden Age but it didn't last very long and the stories (at least the ones I managed to read) were not very good.

Dick's Robin era is very much defined by green panties and exclaiming 'holy IT&T Batman', his best run was during the Bronze Age when he joined the New Teen Titans which culminated in him becoming Nightwing. He had a few good solo stories during the Bronze Age as Robin but that's about it.

Tim was the first Robin to wear pants, he got the signature bo staff, the cape that was black on the outside, the ninja shoes and the vest was now an armor. His ongoing ran much longer than any other Robin, he had parents and a full fledged supporting cast. Tim is so influential that they retroactively added elements that were unique to him to both Dick and Jason. B:TAS gave Tim's Robin suit to Dick, the 2003 Teen Titans show also gave Dick the bo staff, pants and the spiky hair. Jason also sported several of Tim's costumes in the 'Under the Red Hood' movie. Even YJ Dick had some of Tim's qualities like being more tech savvy and intuitive intelligence.

Turning Tim into a mini Bruce was a mistake, imo. Especially with Damian around. The fact that he has been excluded from most adaptations while giving his qualities to other characters has caused the character to languish and for people to not see the point of the character. IMO, Tim is a much more interesting character than Damian will ever be.

[9th.]

Shazam (and his extended family) is an untapped goldmine animation wise. There is so much that could be done.

Also if DC ever taps into the manga market Billy is the character to do that with, he's a shonen protagonist in every sense.

[Aahz]

Dick did have solo series back in the Golden Age but it didn't last very long and the stories (at least the ones I managed to read) were not very good.

It lasted for roughly 5 1/2 years, that's long than many current runs last.
And resulted in him having more appearances in the Golden Age than Batman

[John Venus]

It lasted for roughly 5 1/2 years, that's long than many current runs last.
And resulted in him having more appearances in the Golden Age than Batman

Yes, longer than many runs *today*.

Robin Vol 2 went from 1993-2009. That's 16 years worth of stories.

[dietrich]

True, but I was trying to provide the abridged version.



Technically, Bruce and everyone else has aged up just as much as the kids. But the difference between 14 and 19 is much bigger and more obvious than the difference between 30 and 35, or 35 and 40.

In fact, in current canon Bruce and Clark are both 40 at least, if not a few years older.



Happy to oblige! And yeah, I agree, Tim is the best Robin. I love Dick Grayson, he's my second favorite DC character. But I think Tim is what elevated the role of "Robin" from a sidekick into an independent hero capable of doing his own thing. I wish the guy would move on into a new role and name, since Damian isn't gonna let go of "Robin" for anything less than a pointy eared cowl, but Tim's the guy who made Robin a solo star.

That is not only BS but flat wrong.

Are we all going to now pretend that Star Spangled Comics didn't exist?

That Dick and co didn't form a group separate from batman and co where they were independent and not sidekicks?

It's fine to have our favourites but lets not pretend that Dick Grayson as robin didn't also work as a solo hero. Lets not pretend that those stories didn't last over 80 issues.

I feel like i'm in La la land. I know fans like to HC but we can't just ignore facts. I own one of the volumes of the collected Star Spangled comics.

[dietrich]

Kind of yeah. Tim really hasn’t had his big, “graduation day” if you will. Even when he did do a name change beyond Robin it was Red Robin which feels like a lateral move. Bendis tried to make Drake work but it didn’t stick.

Tim just doesn’t quite have that element of a separate identity that exists outside of being Robin. Dick has Nightwing, Barbara Oracle, Jason Red Hood. All identities that can exist separately from the Bat-family, but Tim doesn’t really have that. Maybe it’s because each time hasn’t been a big defining moment of him growing up into his own role and more Tim having to get out of Damian’s way as he takes the role/an attempt to make a change for the sake of someone else.

Tim did have that. red robin. That the whole point and theme of that series.

[dietrich]

Dick didn't really had a defining moment, and had also to give up the mantle so that Batman could have a Robin again.

But the differnce is that Dick was older when it happened, so moving out of his kid identity to take up an adult one felt naturally, and the writers put imo some work in to sell that change.

Tim was and is still to young enough to be Robin. His transition out of the role was little bit like Dick had to change to Nightwing in the mid 60s before finishing high school.

And part of why Jason works is also that he is usually treated, written and drawn older than he should be.

Tim was like 17 when he had to give up Robin. How old was Dick when he had to give up Robin.