Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Tzigone]

Question:

Why can Batman stay 29/30 forever but the Young Justice kids had to go ftom 11 to 19 and hooking up in barns?

The YJ kids were *never* 11 as sidekicks in the comics. Even the youngest-at-intro (Tim) was introduced at 13, and the others were 14/15. Though certainly the all-too-often de-aging of heroes annoys me greatly.

Tim was like 17 when he had to give up Robin. How old was Dick when he had to give up Robin.

19, generally. Though it was (stupidly, IMO) retconned to 16 (I believe during Nightwing: Year One, but definitely during latter post-COIE days when they decided to de-age Dick to 21 in the present-tense).

I don't think it can at all be undone, but I really do think there are negatives to what they did. Back before Jason, being Robin wasn't something one "graduated" from - Robin grew up with Dick and was an adult hero and widely respected as such. Now it's become a transitional/"kid" role, and I don't like really like it (thought I absolutely accept it). It's even worse that they then did the same with Batgirl. I'm not a legacy fan, anyway (I like the idea of characters making their own names great, not having the height of achievement being handed someone else's), but this sort of led to the idea that all teen heroes have to shed their identities to "grow up." I can see doing that with names with "kid" or "boy" or "girl" and whatnot in the title, but not for Impulse and the like. There's no reason he shouldn't keep that name, that's **his** forever. And Nightwing, especially, should never be a legacy given that the story on him taking that identity specifically to disassociate from the established hero.

And same-naming them makes it more likely for fandom in-fighting, displacement of pre-existing characters, and then even the writers crapping on the others that held the title (or at least specifically and intentionally diminishing them to make the one look superior to the rest).

[dietrich]

Carrie Kelly is the one that modernised Robin for me. Her origins are remarkably similar to Tim who debuted 2 years after TDKR.

Before Tim and Damian, she was the most "intentional" seeking out Batman and actively going out of her way to become his partner. Grasping the bull by the horns as it were.

[dietrich]

The YJ kids were *never* 11 as sidekicks in the comics. Even the youngest-at-intro (Tim) was introduced at 13, and the others were 14/15. Though certainly the all-too-often de-aging of heroes annoys me greatly.

It so strange how the YJ gen seems to be doing a Benjamin button right now. They keep getting younger [we don't know their current canon ages but they are being drawn younger and younger]

[Tzigone]

It so strange how the YJ gen seems to be doing a Benjamin button right now. They keep getting younger [we don't know their current canon ages but they are being drawn younger and younger]

Haven't read in a long while, I admit. Hmm, I wonder if it's an effort to keep the main gen young (Barbara and Dick have both been hit with that one). Or they just don't know what to do with them older, so transition back to their ages at the beginning of the era (like Raven and Gar).

[Aahz]

19, generally.

The two years age difference might not sound that much, but Dick had went of to collage more than a decade before that, and wasn't really working with Batman at this point anymore. While Tim was still in high school and was adopted by Bruce pretty recently.
With Dick they had some time establishing that he was an adult and nor Bruce sidekick anymore, and they had started to draw him like an adult.

Tim was still written land drawn like a teenager, after he became Red Robin.

[MajorHoy]

Tim was like 17 when he had to give up Robin. How old was Dick when he had to give up Robin.

Originally, Dick didn't "have to" give up being Robin; he chose to, and let Jason have that identity.

But I don't know what later retcons have done with that . . .

[Ascended]

Eh, that's not exactly true.

Tim may have been the first of the Robin's to have his own long-running, self-titled comic book series, but Dick also was a "solo star" in his own solo feature back in the day.

I'm aware of that, yeah, and of the fact that Dick appeared more in the Golden Age than Bruce.

I don't undersell Dick at all. He's my second favorite character in DC. And obviously you can't underestimate the importance of the character in the medium, he was the first Robin, the first sidekick, and blew open the doors for those PoV audience insert characters. He changed the trajectory of the Batman franchise forever. His transition to Nightwing also, IMO, marked an important shift in the industry, making it okay for characters to grow up and change in drastic ways. Comics as a whole owe a massive debt to Dick Grayson. But Dick's Golden Age solo *feature* is not, in my opinion, the same as a solo *title* with his name on the cover, and the semantics of that aside? It lasted a relatively short time, by the standards of the age, did damn little overall to remove "Robin" from the moniker of "Batman and...." and DC never made a solo attempt again until Tim.

I don't undervalue Dick at all, but perhaps people don't give Tim as much value as he should get. Golden Age DC briefly toyed with the idea of Robin as a solo star, but that's all they did; toy with the idea. Tim is the Robin that proved the concept was viable and sustainable. Damian wouldn't have his Robin title right now if not for the success of Tim's solo.

And recognizing that is not belittling Dick Grayson. In the grand scheme of things Dick Grayson is one of the five most important superheroes in history (not just DC, across the medium), Tim's only real claim to fame is that he was able to prove the role could carry its own book long-term.

[dietrich]

I'm aware of that, yeah, and of the fact that Dick appeared more in the Golden Age than Bruce.

I don't undersell Dick at all. He's my second favorite character in DC. And obviously you can't underestimate the importance of the character in the medium, he was the first Robin, the first sidekick, and blew open the doors for those PoV audience insert characters. He changed the trajectory of the Batman franchise forever. His transition to Nightwing also, IMO, marked an important shift in the industry, making it okay for characters to grow up and change in drastic ways. Comics as a whole owe a massive debt to Dick Grayson. But Dick's Golden Age solo *feature* is not, in my opinion, the same as a solo *title* with his name on the cover, and the semantics of that aside? It lasted a relatively short time, by the standards of the age, did damn little overall to remove "Robin" from the moniker of "Batman and...." and DC never made a solo attempt again until Tim.

I don't undervalue Dick at all, but perhaps people don't give Tim as much value as he should get. Golden Age DC briefly toyed with the idea of Robin as a solo star, but that's all they did; toy with the idea. Tim is the Robin that proved the concept was viable and sustainable. Damian wouldn't have his Robin title right now if not for the success of Tim's solo.

And recognizing that is not belittling Dick Grayson. In the grand scheme of things Dick Grayson is one of the five most important superheroes in history (not just DC, across the medium), Tim's only real claim to fame is that he was able to prove the role could carry its own book long-term.

Why are some so desperate to give Tim/every character a claim to fame?
Tim being able to prove that the role could carry it's own book long term doesn't mean much when it comes with an asterix.

Dick showed/proved that Robin as a solo hero has value not just in comics. He gave the role value period.

The irony of the statement that Tim is the best Robin is that Tim is the only male Robin that Dc/WB hasn't had the confidence to showcase canon accurate in outside media.

he's either Jason Todd or he is blended with elements of Duke and Damian.
You'd think WB would lead with their best?

Oh wait they do. Dick Grayson is still to this day DC/WB's gateway Robin.

Tim fans can still enjoy Tim without having to go to ridiculous lengths to Jedi mind trick others that he is special/the best.

Tim doesn't need to the best nor does he need a claim to fame to be enjoyable.

[thefinalguy]

If anything, Tim proves Robin can exist without Dick behind the mantle.

Why DC doesn't actually give him the time of day isn't a DC problem.

Because, if that's argued then that applies to other interesting, sometimes successful characters also.

[Tzigone]

The two years age difference might not sound that much, but Dick had went of to collage more than a decade before that, and wasn't really working with Batman at this point anymore. While Tim was still in high school and was adopted by Bruce pretty recently.
With Dick they had some time establishing that he was an adult and nor Bruce sidekick anymore, and they had started to draw him like an adult.

Tim was still written land drawn like a teenager, after he became Red Robin.

Well, Tim was still supposed to be a teenager (though, so was Dick - just an adult teenager - and I find it kinda funny how they transitioned him to "the teen wonder" when he was in college, given that it could only last a couple years, in-universe). I think Tim's transition to Red Robin was handled terribly (and tailor-made to cause hostility in the fandom). Forcing him out was all angst and such (as was Dick's retconned transition to Nightwing). But then they'd already loaded him up with angst by killing off his dad and Steph and Kon and I think they'd already ruined a lot of what I liked about him. But it works for a lot of people and many love the woobie aspect.

I'm a '90s Tim fan - back before they started saying he was the ultimate and intentionally denigrating Dick in comparison (though, sadly, Jason already got dumped on a bunch to absolve Bruce of any blame and make it okay for him to take on another kid sidekick) and pulling him as RR-god like Bat-god, before they angst-i-fied his life, before he lost his civilian friends, and especially before he had a phase a brooding mini-Bruce with many of his worst habits. Of course, I also very much dislike the direction Bruce has taken since the '90s (off and on, and sometimes worse than others), what Dick has become, Steph turning becoming the snarky/wise-cracky, Batgirl replacement (yes, I found it a demotion, and I liked her better with own identity as an independent hero than answering to Barbara). But those modern versions are very, very popular with a lot of people, so DC is going to do what they think will make money. Certainly been successful with Batman.

[Restingvoice]

Why are some so desperate to give Tim/every character a claim to fame?
Tim being able to prove that the role could carry it's own book long term doesn't mean much when it comes with an asterix.

Dick showed/proved that Robin as a solo hero has value not just in comics. He gave the role value period.

The irony of the statement that Tim is the best Robin is that Tim is the only male Robin that Dc/WB hasn't had the confidence to showcase canon accurate in outside media.

he's either Jason Todd or he is blended with elements of Duke and Damian.
You'd think WB would lead with their best?

Oh wait they do. Dick Grayson is still to this day DC/WB's gateway Robin.

Tim fans can still enjoy Tim without having to go to ridiculous lengths to Jedi mind trick others that he is special/the best.

Tim doesn't need to the best nor does he need a claim to fame to be enjoyable.

Dick is the most often featured Robin because he's the most known to public, that's about it.

Tim was given elements of Jason because they wanted to do Jason, as that's the chronology, but his story is not for kids
Tim was given Duke elements because they wanted to do Tim, as that's the chronology, but they also want diversity
Both example has the creator of the show wanting to do Robins chronologically as comics did but they have to adjust

Damian is different because they're making the DCAU Bat fam to be about him. They don't portray the AU chronologically like the comics but create a world with Damian's role first and then added the others. Old stories that doesn't have Damian or aren't about Damian like Hush, Terror of Trigon, and Judas Contract are adjusted to this world where Damian is central.

[dietrich]

Dick is the most often featured Robin because he's the most known to public, that's about it.

Tim was given elements of Jason because they wanted to do Jason, as that's the chronology, but his story is not for kids
Tim was given Duke elements because they wanted to do Tim, as that's the chronology, but they also want diversity
Both example has the creator of the show wanting to do Robins chronologically as comics did but they have to adjust

Damian is different because they're making the DCAU Bat fam to be about him. They don't portray the AU chronologically like the comics but create a world with Damian's role first and then added the others. Old stories that doesn't have Damian or aren't about Damian like Hush, Terror of Trigon, and Judas Contract are adjusted to this world where Damian is central.

Pretty much all that is incorrect.

WB don't use dick grayson as the gateway Robin because he is the most known. The fact that he was Dick was deliberately kept secret in the gateway media. Only easter eggs and one episode name check him. Casuals would have no clue that he was Dick.

fans knew from the jump it was Dick because we read NewTT.

The creator's of BTAS weren't remotely interested in chronologically following the comics. They used Jason because they found his story more compelling than Tims and were eventually forced by WB to name him tim.

Tucker confirmed that the adapted out the other Robins along with many other DC heroes because they were forced to streamline the universe.

Dick was the first and Damian was the current hence why they went with them.

Fun Fact Ernie Altbacker kept trying to kill off Damian the duration the universe was a thing.

[SiegePerilous02]

Tim was the first Robin to wear pants, he got the signature bo staff, the cape that was black on the outside, the ninja shoes and the vest was now an armor. His ongoing ran much longer than any other Robin, he had parents and a full fledged supporting cast. Tim is so influential that they retroactively added elements that were unique to him to both Dick and Jason. B:TAS gave Tim's Robin suit to Dick, the 2003 Teen Titans show also gave Dick the bo staff, pants and the spiky hair. Jason also sported several of Tim's costumes in the 'Under the Red Hood' movie. Even YJ Dick had some of Tim's qualities like being more tech savvy and intuitive intelligence.

TBF, that costume was designed by Neal Adams with Dick in mind, not Tim, so I wouldn't necessarily say that's an example of Tim being influential. Since it was designed for Dick and Dick used it in wider reaching media (BTAS and Batman Forever), I'd say he has equal claim to the costume, if not a stronger one.

TNBA Tim was also originally going to be Jason. He pretty much still is in all but name, DC had the producers call him Tim Drake to line up with then-current comics. It's why over in STAS, Green Lantern has brown hair and is given his ring by Abin-Sur, but he's named Kyle instead of Hal. So in some sense, Jason has a bit of a claim to Tim's other iconic costume

[dietrich]

TBF, that costume was designed by Neal Adams with Dick in mind, not Tim, so I wouldn't necessarily say that's an example of Tim being influential. Since it was designed for Dick and Dick used it in wider reaching media (BTAS and Batman Forever), I'd say he has equal claim to the costume, if not a stronger one.

TNBA Tim was also originally going to be Jason. He pretty much still is in all but name, DC had the producers call him Tim Drake to line up with then-current comics. It's why over in STAS, Green Lantern has brown hair and is given his ring by Abin-Sur, but he's named Kyle instead of Hal. So in some sense, Jason has a bit of a claim to Tim's other iconic costume

In Titans companion 2 by Glen Cadigan, there's an interview with Neal about the redesign. he was so pissed when he found out that the suit was going to Tim. He doesn't even hide it.

Neal said he had so many story idea's he pitched for Dick but he never got the chance to write them.

He calls the Suit 'his greatest gift to Dick Grayson.

neal got paid twice for the suit because Dc had refused to change the OG Robin suit. They refused to update it to something more modern like burton requested so Wb was forced to commission a redesign for Dick [the Neal Adams design]

Dc saw the suit later and wanted it for their new Robin [Tim] but since the design wasn't commissioned by them, wasn't for the character they couldn't. It belong to them. DC had to pay Neal and WB. So neal got paid double for that redesign.

[marhawkman]

And Nightwing, especially, should never be a legacy given that the story on him taking that identity specifically to disassociate from the established hero.

Well.. tell that to Lor-Zod... and Cheyenne Freemont.. and Kal-El I guess? Funny thing is that most of the Nightwings.. did it while Dick Grayson was Nightwing. So while it's in some way shared... it's not a legacy name. Unless you use the view point of Dick Grayson not being first...

It so strange how the YJ gen seems to be doing a Benjamin button right now. They keep getting younger [we don't know their current canon ages but they are being drawn younger and younger]

Part of why I liked Conner+Cassie. You can't just randomly decide to write them as if they're 15...