Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[krazijoe]

Ha! You got me on that one. Perhaps I should have said "achievement" instead. And Tim did hold down that book for quite a while, longer than his peers and a lot of other characters too. Definitely respectable, I think.

Anyway, hey here's a controversial opinion.

DC clearly has no idea what to do with the Young Justice generation. Tim, Conner, Bart, Cassie, Courtney (not team YJ, but same age, created in the same era, similar effort from DC, etc)....DC often treated these guys as if they were the quasi-official heirs apparent to the mantles of the League. The Titans had grown into their own thing, so Conner, Tim, etc., were all clearly pointed at taking over for their mentors in a future we'll never reach. So clearly, in fact, that DC loved subverting that expectation, and did "the future YJ is evil!" stories on more than one occasion. I felt it had become YJ's version of the Titans' "betrayed from within!" troupe.

Then the YJ gen started going off the rails around Infinite Crisis, fans started losing interest, and it spiraled downward. Now we got Damian and Jon and Kaldur and Yara and Emiko and whoever the hell else, some of whom have already taken over the mentor's mantles, and nobody knows what to do with YJ. DC isn't interested, fans aren't satisfied by the reunions we've gotten, they're just old favorites from fans who got reading in the 90's, with just enough value and fanbase to keep, but not enough to be any kind of priority.

And reading that awful Dark Crisis tie-in it really shocks me just how much the characters within universe don't give a **** about them. These kids have suffered and literally died in the name of people who largely just do not care, often because they have "real" kids to give the crowns to now. Maybe it's time for a lot, for some, of these YJ kids to say screw it, we're gonna do things our way, and break bad. Not "Joker" bad, but maybe "Black Adam when he's not feeling especially friendly" bad? I dunno, it's not an idea I really buy into, but I thought it was just interesting enough to toss out here and see what y'all think. I love this generation, but let's be real; they lost their shine a long time ago and can't go back to their old roles and positions. Reunions don't seem to be working any more than they do for the Titans, none of us have been satisfied with the latest attempts right? I think I enjoyed Bendis' YJ more than most and even I thought it only had its moments. So maybe these kids should do what some of their future selves have done, and decide to get serious about saving the world no matter how ugly and bloody it has to get?

Black Zero. Savior. Titans of Tomorrow. Normal Cassie in New52. There's in-canon precedence, sorta. It'd rub some of that "WildStorm" moral gray into the DCU, but using characters who actually fit the narrative. If nothing else it'd be a chance to do something interesting with these guys again.

Tim got Hologram covers! DID ANY OTHER OF THE ROBINS?!?!?!?

[Fergus]

Huh. I must have missed his big successful solo run in the very first "Robin" title then. Or was it a "Robin" tv show that I missed?

Dick's Golden Age features don't, IMO, count as a solo book. Obviously Robin was a global icon before the people who invented Tim Drake were even born. But while Dick proved that Robin could work great as a sidekick, a team leader/member, with or without Batman, and as a feature in anthologies, he was never given the opportunity to prove himself with a solo Robin title.

That's just the facts.

Well.....

In 1949 Robin struck out on his own for the first time. The Boy Wonder got his first taste of solo success early in Star Spangled Comics. The anthology series featured Robin from Star Spangled Comics #65-#130. The stories featured Robin solving teenage-related crimes and fighting forgettable villains like the Clock, who was a less royal version of the Clock King. Batman occasionally appeared, but this was Robin’s time to shine.

Robin was so successful in the Golden Age that until the founding of the Justice League of America, Robin technically appeared in more comic books than Batman himself.

https://www.dc.com/blog/2021/09/03/t...he-dc-universe

The Golden Age series with RobinDick might not have been a solo self titled series but it proved to DC that Robin on his own [Not as a sidekick, team member or leader] was a success and does work.

[SiegePerilous02]

I don't think it takes away from Tim. True, Adams may have initially designed it with Dick in mind but the latter went on to become Nightwing and Jason wore the green panty suit for a while. Tim was the one who made a splash with the modern Robin suit that was later adapted for Dick and Jason.

The excerpts from the Denny O'Neil's 'Batman Bible' which the writers referred to in the 90's gave us a peek of how they viewed character and it's pretty clear that they thought of Tim as the modern Robin and Dick's Robin as the outdated concept.

I don't know if it's a case of taking anything away from Tim, because Tim using the costume in the comics to successful reception is no small feat. But I think calling it an example of him being "influential" may a bit much as well. At least in the case of Dick, since it was adapted for him to use in BTAS but was originally commissioned for Dick in the first place. So Dick influenced Tim who in turn influenced something for Dick in adaptations. Plus the modern costume was building off of iconic elements that Dick made famous and recognizable in the first place.

The writers of the 90s thought he was the improved modern model. Meanwhile, BTAS just gave Dick the costume but otherwise was exactly like his Bronze Age counterpart in characterization and set up (college aged, teamed up with Batman or acted solo depending on the story). He didn't seem outdated even if the "Batman Bible" disagreed.

All too true. Tim was the one who made it famous.

I guess it depends on who you ask and where they first saw it. BTAS was my introduction to Robin as it was for countless other kids in the 90s, so Dick made the costume famous for me.

I didn't hear the name Tim Drake until I watched TNBA as it aired, and I didn't realize yet that the character I was actually watching was Jason Todd.

[skyvolt2000]

I guess it depends on who you ask and where they first saw it. BTAS was my introduction to Robin as it was for countless other kids in the 90s, so Dick made the costume famous for me.

I didn't hear the name Tim Drake until I watched TNBA as it aired, and I didn't realize yet that the character I was actually watching was Jason Todd.

Tim proved a Robin title could sell.

Along with how to develop a new character.

A few appearances in a book BEYOND backgound

A few minis

Then if those minis did well an ongoing.

[phonogram12]

Well.....

In 1949 Robin struck out on his own for the first time. The Boy Wonder got his first taste of solo success early in Star Spangled Comics. The anthology series featured Robin from Star Spangled Comics #65-#130. The stories featured Robin solving teenage-related crimes and fighting forgettable villains like the Clock, who was a less royal version of the Clock King. Batman occasionally appeared, but this was Robin’s time to shine.

Robin was so successful in the Golden Age that until the founding of the Justice League of America, Robin technically appeared in more comic books than Batman himself.

https://www.dc.com/blog/2021/09/03/t...he-dc-universe

The Golden Age series with RobinDick might not have been a solo self titled series but it proved to DC that Robin on his own [Not as a sidekick, team member or leader] was a success and does work.

I mean, I love Dick Grayson as much as the next guy, but if that was supposed to be the set-up for a Robin series, it wasn't a great one since it took more than 40 years after that for a Robin title to be released.

I don't know if it's a case of taking anything away from Tim, because Tim using the costume in the comics to successful reception is no small feat. But I think calling it an example of him being "influential" may a bit much as well. At least in the case of Dick, since it was adapted for him to use in BTAS but was originally commissioned for Dick in the first place. So Dick influenced Tim who in turn influenced something for Dick in adaptations. Plus the modern costume was building off of iconic elements that Dick made famous and recognizable in the first place.

The writers of the 90s thought he was the improved modern model. Meanwhile, BTAS just gave Dick the costume but otherwise was exactly like his Bronze Age counterpart in characterization and set up (college aged, teamed up with Batman or acted solo depending on the story). He didn't seem outdated even if the "Batman Bible" disagreed.

I guess it depends on who you ask and where they first saw it. BTAS was my introduction to Robin as it was for countless other kids in the 90s, so Dick made the costume famous for me.

I didn't hear the name Tim Drake until I watched TNBA as it aired, and I didn't realize yet that the character I was actually watching was Jason Todd.

See, I was reading the comics when Jason first started post-Crisis, so I never really once associated any other costume to either him or Dick Grayson than the original. I think for many the original costume will always be associated with Dick (since in addition to the comics), it was used in the old serials, the '66 show, and the various cartoons that cam afterwards prior to TNA. Not to mention all the merchandising.

[dietrich]

Ha! You got me on that one. Perhaps I should have said "achievement" instead. And Tim did hold down that book for quite a while, longer than his peers and a lot of other characters too. Definitely respectable, I think.

Anyway, hey here's a controversial opinion.

DC clearly has no idea what to do with the Young Justice generation. Tim, Conner, Bart, Cassie, Courtney (not team YJ, but same age, created in the same era, similar effort from DC, etc)....DC often treated these guys as if they were the quasi-official heirs apparent to the mantles of the League. The Titans had grown into their own thing, so Conner, Tim, etc., were all clearly pointed at taking over for their mentors in a future we'll never reach. So clearly, in fact, that DC loved subverting that expectation, and did "the future YJ is evil!" stories on more than one occasion. I felt it had become YJ's version of the Titans' "betrayed from within!" troupe.

Then the YJ gen started going off the rails around Infinite Crisis, fans started losing interest, and it spiraled downward. Now we got Damian and Jon and Kaldur and Yara and Emiko and whoever the hell else, some of whom have already taken over the mentor's mantles, and nobody knows what to do with YJ. DC isn't interested, fans aren't satisfied by the reunions we've gotten, they're just old favorites from fans who got reading in the 90's, with just enough value and fanbase to keep, but not enough to be any kind of priority.

And reading that awful Dark Crisis tie-in it really shocks me just how much the characters within universe don't give a **** about them. These kids have suffered and literally died in the name of people who largely just do not care, often because they have "real" kids to give the crowns to now. Maybe it's time for a lot, for some, of these YJ kids to say screw it, we're gonna do things our way, and break bad. Not "Joker" bad, but maybe "Black Adam when he's not feeling especially friendly" bad? I dunno, it's not an idea I really buy into, but I thought it was just interesting enough to toss out here and see what y'all think. I love this generation, but let's be real; they lost their shine a long time ago and can't go back to their old roles and positions. Reunions don't seem to be working any more than they do for the Titans, none of us have been satisfied with the latest attempts right? I think I enjoyed Bendis' YJ more than most and even I thought it only had its moments. So maybe these kids should do what some of their future selves have done, and decide to get serious about saving the world no matter how ugly and bloody it has to get?

Black Zero. Savior. Titans of Tomorrow. Normal Cassie in New52. There's in-canon precedence, sorta. It'd rub some of that "WildStorm" moral gray into the DCU, but using characters who actually fit the narrative. If nothing else it'd be a chance to do something interesting with these guys again.

The thing is, Characters in the universe do care about the YJ generation which is what makes that Tie in so OCC.

I get that DC has a new generation of legacy to promote and that the FS line up are the new inheritors but the execution is clumsy.

Dark Crisis is supposed to be about the importance of legacy.

YJ are in a tight spot. The heroes above them aren't getting older, there's the younger ones coming up and there's this newly introduced mantle holders [Jace, Jon, Yara and co]

There's little room for them. The nostalgic reunions haven't worked and maybe we should stop expecting them to follow a similar path like their mentors.

The fans are still there. all they need is the right direction, the right writer and fans to let go of preformed expectation.

They don't need to go anti hero. I'm not sure how fans will feel about characters they fell in love with as heroes suddenly going Titans of Tomorrow and becoming Fascists.

It might help if they were broken up. They don't have to come as a set. Individually I'm sure DC can find spots for them on other teams or different paths.

Tim's got a solo coming up. cassie can star in a title with Yara [like the Batgirls], Conner can team with Kara or something etc.

Writers should think outside the box.

On the Tim Robin solo subject, I actually never argued that Tim didn't have an impressive run as Robin. That's facts.

[Felipe Silveira]

Robin is the big deal, Tim Drake is the detail. If you want to give credit to anyone for making the title work, that someone is Dennis O'Neil, who did the same for Nightwing (a name much less known than Robin), with Catwoman, Birds of Prey and Batgirl.

[Ascended]

Tim got Hologram covers! DID ANY OTHER OF THE ROBINS?!?!?!?

Exactly! GOAT. /flex

Well.....

Like I said, I know about the feature. I don't personally consider that the same thing as a solo title.

They don't need to go anti hero. I'm not sure how fans will feel about characters they fell in love with as heroes suddenly going Titans of Tomorrow and becoming Fascists.

I'm pretty sure the fandom would react the same way we always react and hate it before it ever got printed. That's what usually happens when something gets changed in any way at all, but it does work out sometimes, and there's not much to lose so I figured it might be worth considering. Not doing it simply for the shock value and making it shallow, but leaning into stuff they've already done that doesn't quite fit the binary morality of the DCU. I wouldn't want to overcharge the "anti-hero" stuff. We're not asking Garth Ennis to write the thing yknow? But, like, Tim tried to clone Conner. A lot. That's not a normal thing to do, even for superheroes. He was more than a tad sketchy in Rebirth 'Tec, too. If the burden of being the next Bat isn't on his shoulders anymore, what else might he dare? What might any of them? Nothing too crazy, nothing supervillainous, I'm sure, but outside the League's comfort zone? Maybe. And maybe that might be pretty interesting? Probably a bad call, but if one were to try to add a little more moral complexity to the DCU? These guys might not be the worst place to try it.

It might help if they were broken up. They don't have to come as a set.

Said the same about the Titans, and I agree with it here too, it might be for the best. The problem is finding a place to put them. DC hasn't been doing great with team titles lately so there's limited options for spreading YJ out that way, and a lot of the shiny new toys like Yara already failed to keep books going. Hell some staples of the line aren't carrying books these days. I feel like, realistically, you're either giving the YJ kids their own books (a "test the water" mini?) and praying it works, or putting them in their mentor's titles. One likely leads to limbo (consider when we're likely to see Naomi again), the other to sidekick status, and is that where we want these guys now? Hell of a rock and hard place to be in, I think. /shrug

One thread or other did dream up the idea of Tim and Conner partnering in a title where they had semi-retired as heroes and opened a civilian detective agency. Tim's a great detective obvi, Conner's pretty smart and has enhanced senses, neither need to be "active" superheroes to do cool stuff....it seemed to me like a pretty fun place to put them that offered something unique in the line. But in any case, the kids gotta find a niche that's viable and reunions aren't cutting it. I fear this generation will share the Titan's curse, forced to eternally keep getting together no matter how futile and awful it is.

Writers should think outside the box.

Truer words!

On the Tim Robin solo subject, I actually never argued that Tim didn't have an impressive run as Robin. That's facts.

Oh, didn't mean to imply otherwise. I'd just never really thought about the success of that series. At the time, I took that longevity for granted and assumed that, now that a Robin book existed, it always would. When Robin (Red Robin or whatever, Tim's book) ended, I figured it'd return before long, as often happens with guys like Arrow, Aquaman, etc. Maybe with Damian instead of Tim, since I think he was Robin by then (?) but it'd return. By the time I realized it hadn't relaunched long after it should've, DC had ruined Tim so much I considered it a mercy and Damian felt like he was in so many places he didn't need a solo of his own.

[krazijoe]

I am old...I will always see Burt Ward as Robin and since we don't have any 30 something Robins, I will see Tim as Robin and Dick as Nightwing, Jason dead (WHOA! Maybe he is Jason Vorhees), Damian as a little Sh#T...Carrie as a cool story and Stephanie as a fan boi's dream

[Aahz]

YJ are in a tight spot. The heroes above them aren't getting older, there's the younger ones coming up and there's this newly introduced mantle holders [Jace, Jon, Yara and co]

The new ones aren't even younger, if they have kept Damian Jon and the rest at 10-12, it would be differnt but currently Jon, Yara and Jackson seem all to be older than the YJ4, Wallace, Emiko and Duke seem to be about the same age, and Damian is getting close and currently working with characters that are older than them (Rose and Connor).

I think Irey and Jai that are really drastically younger.

[John Venus]

I don't know if it's a case of taking anything away from Tim, because Tim using the costume in the comics to successful reception is no small feat. But I think calling it an example of him being "influential" may a bit much as well. At least in the case of Dick, since it was adapted for him to use in BTAS but was originally commissioned for Dick in the first place. So Dick influenced Tim who in turn influenced something for Dick in adaptations. Plus the modern costume was building off of iconic elements that Dick made famous and recognizable in the first place.

The writers of the 90s thought he was the improved modern model. Meanwhile, BTAS just gave Dick the costume but otherwise was exactly like his Bronze Age counterpart in characterization and set up (college aged, teamed up with Batman or acted solo depending on the story). He didn't seem outdated even if the "Batman Bible" disagreed.

I guess it depends on who you ask and where they first saw it. BTAS was my introduction to Robin as it was for countless other kids in the 90s, so Dick made the costume famous for me.

I didn't hear the name Tim Drake until I watched TNBA as it aired, and I didn't realize yet that the character I was actually watching was Jason Todd.

Yes, the suit was originally designed for Dick but Tim is the one who wore it and made it famous. Timm and co. cited Tim's suit as an influence for Dick's suit on the show. Jason's Robin wore leggings at one point. It didn't catch on. Tim wore a suit perhaps originally designed for Dick and now every other Robin has worn a variation if it. It would also help to know what Neal Adams original designs where when he was designing the suit for Dick and whether he made any adjustments when he designed the suit for Tim.

My exposure to Dick Grayson was B:TAS as well but getting into comics and other Batman media that I realized that they took some influence from Tim Drake as well. Nearly every animated Robin save for Damian has been a composite version of various Robins.

[Tzigone]

YJ are in a tight spot. The heroes above them aren't getting older, there's the younger ones coming up and there's this newly introduced mantle holders [Jace, Jon, Yara and co]

Which, frankly, is a problem to me, but I don't know that that counts as a controversial opinion. They keep introducing new young heroes (many reusing old names) without moving the old young heroes into proper new slots. I loved seeing the Dick gen grow up. That opened a new slot for new young heroes. Then DC freaked out their prime gen was too old, de-aged plenty of the Dick gen (or at least had them start acting immature and ultimately got rid of their kids). Problematic enough, but then introduce yet another young gen to be younger than Tim's and it gets overcrowded without room to use all the characters that used to be pretty popular (there were always characters a few liked, but didn't really take that end up seldom used - I consider '80s Blue Devil to be one I liked that fit that criteria). So what to do - kill them off horrifically. But then they don't stay dead and even if they did stay dead, the whole generation isn't dead and they aren't wiped out of existence so (since comics have long switched to long-term readers), the age pressure on older heroes remains. That particular issue doesn't exist when introducing new adult heroes (their relative ages *usually* aren't as important), and there's easier to back-bench for not being tied to existing "families." I know it sells, but I do wish they'd work more on new solo heroes and less on new "family members."

I get that DC wants fans who just want a "Robin" and don't care who's under the mask, but it just doesn't work that way for a lot of us. We care about the character, not the role. And if they won't commit to "the aging stops here" and keeping everyone at current levels, either. They want it all - with some characters aging, some not, and some getting younger. And them all still sharing a universe and interacting with each other.

[Aahz]

I get that DC wants fans who just want a "Robin" and don't care who's under the mask, but it just doesn't work that way for a lot of us. We care about the character, not the role. And if they won't commit to "the aging stops here" and keeping everyone at current levels, either. They want it all - with some characters aging, some not, and some getting younger.

I think with an ageing stop, or very slow ageing, establishing a new pre teen aged gen below the YJ4 could have worked.

But when the new characters are about the same age or older, or are ageing much faster than anybody else it just becomes crowded.

I mean based on the last issue of Urban Legends Duke Thomas seems now already to be in collage. And they other members of Damians last Teen Titans team seem to have also allready to have graduated from high school (at least that's how I would understand issue #14 of Teen Titans Academy).

[EDIT:]And at least how I understand the last issue of Dark Crisis: Young Justice, Arrowette seems still to be in High School (but I'm not native speaker, and not tat familiar with the US education system).

[red winter]

My thoughts:

1) DC has way too many titles that are Batman oriented and need to realize that Batman & Superman are not their only characters

2) A Justice Society Incarnate team would be better protecting the Multiverse think of the possibilities they are Endless

3)Wildstorm characters could work as a part of the DCU for examples, WildC.A.T.S. would be great competition for Batman Inc. & Wetworks would be an awesome tactical response team for SHADE

4) Justice League Dark should of had a more Vertigo characters appear along with Wetworks as guest stars

5) Get Peter David doing Aquaman again

[dietrich]

It would also help to know what Neal Adams original designs where when he was designing the suit for Dick and whether he made any adjustments when he designed the suit for Tim.

Interview with Adams re his Journey with Redesigning Robin.

https://books.google.co.uk/books/con...7ikQZtw&w=1280

https://books.google.co.uk/books/con...aWLpl4w&w=1280

Interestingly it turns that the even the Norm Breyfogel Robin concepts and the Perez redesigns were also for the movie.

Dc really was resistant to changing Robin's outfit due to licensing.