Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[phonogram12]

People hate it when I say the fans carry some of the blame here, but that's how business works. The company has offered us, repeatedly, the thing we ask for and we (mostly) don't support it. Hard to blame DC entirely for this problem when they've held up their end but we don't open our wallets. I don't blame anyone for skipping the bad books like Static, but there's no damn reason a title like Silencer or The Terrifics couldn't have thrived; they were quality titles at least as good as the DC average and better than a lot of stuff that sold better.

And we've all noticed that PoC and LBGT characters do really well in the bookstore OGN market, on webtoon, Scholastic book orders, etc. When Moon Girl, Ms. Marvel, Aqualad, etc., all do well outside the direct market but fail to sell at the LCS, it's pretty clear where the problems lie. I wouldn't blame DC or Marvel at all if they stopped trying to diversify the direct market and put that effort into other formats. A OGN will sell more units, create more fans, make more money, and get less backlash from readers than the same character in the direct market.

Agreed on every count here. Remember when there was all that hubbub about that YA OGN about Starfire's rebellious plus-sized goth daughter? Like, c'mon guys, in no universe would you have ever known this existed if not for the Internet. And in no universe will have any effect on Starfire in the mainline DCU. Just let it exist in peace and let those who enjoy it enjoy it. It is of absolutely no threat to you.

As for Nightwing and Catwoman's ethnicities, I have to agree that there's almost no point in calling them anything but while because as others have said, they will (probably) never be played or drawn any differently. It's the same way I feel about Damian Wayne. And I say this as a POC, btw.

[Fergus]

Agreed on every count here. Remember when there was all that hubbub about that YA OGN about Starfire's rebellious plus-sized goth daughter? Like, c'mon guys, in no universe would you have ever known this existed if not for the Internet. And in no universe will have any effect on Starfire in the mainline DCU. Just let it exist in peace and let those who enjoy it enjoy it. It is of absolutely no threat to you.

As for Nightwing and Catwoman's ethnicities, I have to agree that there's almost no point in calling them anything but while because as others have said, they will (probably) never be played or drawn any differently. It's the same way I feel about Damian Wayne. And I say this as a POC, btw.

Hasn't majority of Damian's appearances portrayed him as Darker skinned?

Haven't we seen many stories that spotlight his ethnicity?

Didn't DC themselves spotlight him as a character of colour including spotlighting him in their celebration of Asian heroes?

At this point this just fans deliberately ignoring an key6 part of who the character is for whatever reasons and biases.

Please don't add the disclaimer that you are a poc. That implies like poc can't be bigots. Racism isn't exclusive to white skin.

I don't know what Catwoman's current ethnicity is but I do know that Dick Grayson is supposed to be Romani and that has been referenced in story.

Dick Grayson is drawn to look Romani. Or a better way to phrase it is that a lot of folks that are Romani look like Dick Grayson.

[Fergus]

That was background added years ago in the Devin Grayson run. I believe the current Nightwing writer might have mentioned it in an interview.

Trivia for comic fans, but it's not something that has been acknowledged or referenced in live action, animation or most other multi-media he's been featured in.

This is nightwing from a recent animated series.

[Fergus]

I don't think it's fair to count Dick as a POC unless his Romani heritage is directly reflected in his appearance. He appears white, and a white actor plays him on Titans; he shouldn't be counted along with Nubia, Jace, Damian, etc.

Same for Selina; she's Cuban, but being a Latina doesn't mean you can't be white.

This is a Romani man



This is Dick Grayson from the Titans



This Nightwing from the current run.



Seems to me that his part Romani heritage is strongly reflected in his appearance.

[Ascended]

Damian is one thing. He's been a PoC (well, half) since the start, and is usually colored with a slightly darker shade than most white characters. Not always, a lot of colorists forget, but enough remember. And for me, the big factor is that Damian was an al'Ghul from the beginning, and has ties to....wherever the hell Ra's is from (I forget, somewhere around the Middle East somewhere?).

Dick? He existed for sixty, seventy-something years before Devin Grayson decided he was Romani. And it has never, ever mattered. Dick has never shown any interest in that culture or heritage, he's not connected to it, nothing. Saying he's a PoC is like saying I'm an Irishman. My ancestors were Irish, yes, but I don't call myself Irish. I'm just a generic, white American. And don't get me wrong, it's cool that he's Romani and I do appreciate that this gets brought up once in a while. But that doesn't make him a PoC. Not really. In real life, sure, it would whether Dick embraced that culture or not. You is what you is. But in fiction, if it doesn't impact the character and narrative, when it's just done for "political" reasons? I don't call that representation, I call it cheap low-end effort and I don't like rewarding that.

Same goes for Kyle Rayner. He was revealed to be half Mexican a good ten years after he debuted, and outside of an arc or two that dealt with his dad, it's never mattered to the character on any level. Kyle isn't Mexican, he isn't a PoC. I mean, "technically" he's a white passing Mexican man, but when he was never created or treated as such, when that's never been a part of his story at all? Nope, can't include him. IMO. It'd be like if I found out tomorrow that one of my great-great grandfathers was Native. It's cool to know, but if I never bother to learn anything about where he came from, or embrace that heritage, then I can't really call myself Native, and trying to would just be me trying to cash in on something that doesn't actually reflect who I am.

Hell, I found out, I dunno, six months ago maybe, that my ancestors were some kind of nobility. But that doesn't make me a Lord (I wish it did, the extra money would be nice). Though, if y'all want, I *will* answer to a polite "m'Lord Ascended."

Selina....I don't know enough about her to say. I'd never heard that she was Cuban, but I also rarely ever read any of her solo stuff, so maybe I just missed it?

Seems to me that we can say Dick, Kyle, (maybe?) Selina, characters like this....they might "officially" be white passing PoC. You don't have to "look ethnic" or whatever to be a PoC (how many white passing Hispanic folk hate being called white? I've met a few), but when it's a super late addition to the character that doesn't impact them at all, and seems done solely so DC can score some easy diversity points, I don't think it counts.

[phonogram12]

Hasn't majority of Damian's appearances portrayed him as Darker skinned?

Haven't we seen many stories that spotlight his ethnicity?

Didn't DC themselves spotlight him as a character of colour including spotlighting him in their celebration of Asian heroes?

At this point this just fans deliberately ignoring an key6 part of who the character is for whatever reasons and biases.

Please don't add the disclaimer that you are a poc. That implies like poc can't be bigots. Racism isn't exclusive to white skin.

I don't know what Catwoman's current ethnicity is but I do know that Dick Grayson is supposed to be Romani and that has been referenced in story.

Dick Grayson is drawn to look Romani. Or a better way to phrase it is that a lot of folks that are Romani look like Dick Grayson.

Yeah, but the thing is, you see any random picture of any of them and they really don't look anything but white. While I do appreciate the efforts, they seem rather half-assed, tbh. It's kind of like how some complained how Storm of the X-Men had very white features for the longest time and the only real indicator that she was black was how they colored her. It's only been relatively recently that editorial at Marvel really corrected that.

As for saying that I'm a POC, I'll say it as I please, thank you. Not that you're owed any sort of explanation, but my intention wasn't to imply that POC can't be racist. But racism does imply having some sort of inherent power because of your skin color. And in the US, that power belongs to white people whether that's a fact you want to admit to yourself or not.

[thefinalguy]

Lumping Damian in with Dick or Selina isn't fair. His background has always been the same; it's just the Al Ghuls have been notoriously whitewashed over the years. Only recently, Talia seems more consistently drawn as not passing; neither of her parents is white, same for Ra's.

It's unfortunate for a few people like Ravager (Rose Wilson). It's established in her first appearance she's half-Cambodian, yet it took until Rebirth for that to be reflected in her appearance. DC, like other comics, has the issue of completely erasing some characters' ethnicities. I'm reading the Green Arrow run from '01, and Conner's skin tone has been lighter the entire time, I know he is mixed, but there's been no real tell that he's even supposed to be if I didn't know who he was I wouldn't be able to tell.

This is a Romani man



This is Dick Grayson from the Titans



Seems to me that his part Romani heritage is strongly reflected in his appearance.

Brenton Thwaites isn't Romani, so I don't see how Dick's heritage is reflected. And no one is gonna look at that last panel and assume he's a Romani man. Some have darker skins than others, but Dick appears close enough to white that you wouldn't be able to tell otherwise. Although now I'm wondering if Harley Quinn gave him the tan as a nod to him being Romani because he's normally paler.

[skyvolt2000]

Seems to me that we can say Dick, Kyle, (maybe?) Selina, characters like this....they might "officially" be white passing PoC. You don't have to "look ethnic" or whatever to be a PoC (how many white passing Hispanic folk hate being called white? I've met a few), but when it's a super late addition to the character that doesn't impact them at all, and seems done solely so DC can score some easy diversity points, I don't think it counts.

I think the issue with those guys is this-why have they NOT gotten the toxic backlash that seem to follow other POC (mainly black characters)?

When we see belittling of a POC for having a 12 issue run versus 100 that some white ones have.
NOBODY mentions Dick, Kyle or Catwoman. Who have long runs. Along with Spawn.

For all the grips about POC in comics here are 3 that defy that. So if they can be accepted why is it an issue for almost everyone else?

At this point this just fans deliberately ignoring an key6 part of who the character is for whatever reasons and biases.

Damian is Batman's SON that is why it's being ignored.

Along with the fact unlike some POC (Duke & Wallace) getting fleshed out as a character is not an issue. So there is more to him.

Remember when there was all that hubbub about that YA OGN about Starfire's rebellious plus-sized goth daughter?

It still sold despite it.

[Agent Z]

This is a Romani man



This is Dick Grayson from the Titans



This Nightwing from the current run.



Seems to me that his part Romani heritage is strongly reflected in his appearance.

I'm not seeing how he looks any different from the white guys in that image unless they're supposed to be Romani too.

[krazijoe]

I'm not seeing how he looks any different from the white guys in that image unless they're supposed to be Romani too.

Maybe he is not dark skinned?
My GF is Puerto Rican, born there to two PR parents. I am darker than she is and I am a WASP born in Vermont...a POC does not necessarily mean they have more melanin than someone else.

[Fergus]

I'm not seeing how he looks any different from the white guys in that image unless they're supposed to be Romani too.

they might be we don't their full linage

Does the guy in the top look that much different from the actor that plays Dick on Titans?

My point is that a lot of Roma look exactly how Dick has always been portrayed including that comic panel.

[Fergus]

Lumping Damian in with Dick or Selina isn't fair. His background has always been the same; it's just the Al Ghuls have been notoriously whitewashed over the years. Only recently, Talia seems more consistently drawn as not passing; neither of her parents is white, same for Ra's.

It's unfortunate for a few people like Ravager (Rose Wilson). It's established in her first appearance she's half-Cambodian, yet it took until Rebirth for that to be reflected in her appearance. DC, like other comics, has the issue of completely erasing some characters' ethnicities. I'm reading the Green Arrow run from '01, and Conner's skin tone has been lighter the entire time, I know he is mixed, but there's been no real tell that he's even supposed to be if I didn't know who he was I wouldn't be able to tell.



Brenton Thwaites isn't Romani, so I don't see how Dick's heritage is reflected. And no one is gonna look at that last panel and assume he's a Romani man. Some have darker skins than others, but Dick appears close enough to white that you wouldn't be able to tell otherwise. Although now I'm wondering if Harley Quinn gave him the tan as a nod to him being Romani because he's normally paler.

I'm not saying that he is. I'm just saying that he fits the tall dark and handsome of Dick grayson and the Romani guy pictured at the top. There isn't much difference so to me Dick can be seen as reflecting his Romani part.

The Damian is not a POC stance always puzzles me.

Even after DC has embraced his ethnicity and we have him eating Blood soup, wearing The Thobe, multiple runs that characterise him with brown skin and Asian features.

Even after the DC Asian Celebration anthology.

Even after a mediocre comic site named him the greatest Middle Eastern Super hero following a poll by readers.

Even being an Al Ghul.

Something about that continued denial feels insidious and I don't know why.

[Agent Z]

they might be we don't their full linage

Does the guy in the top look that much different from the actor that plays Dick on Titans?

My point is that a lot of Roma look exactly how Dick has always been portrayed including that comic panel.

I was referring solely to the guys in the comic image.

[Daedalus]

This is a Romani man

That is only what one possible Romani man looks like.

The Romani are not a race, nor are they defined by skin colour. Culturally, they’ve been itinerant, migrant, and a safe haven for the outcast and poor. Their shared way of life makes them Romani, not the blood in their veins. The World Romani Congress’ only requirement is that people speak the language, which can be learnt.

They are incredibly diverse - in all senses of the word -, and they are present in almost all continents as a result of their itinerant lifestyle and periodical persecution. There are dark-skinned Romani, blond Romani, blue-eyed Romani, mixed Romani, Catholic Romani, Protestant Romani, Muslim Romani, Orthodox Romani, etc. This diversity is not new. The Romani in Hunchback of Notre Dame are all described very differently, as a simple out-of-time example.

Mary Grayson may have been raised Romani, and Dick was raised in a circus, which does indeed share some - though not all - similarities with the traditional Romani way of life. None of this has any impact on how he looks: he’s fair-skinned and blue-eyed, and has been consistently depicted so for 70 years. That does not make him any more or any less Romani.

[9th.]

Unless, it was consistently acknowledged, I don't even consider characters like Catwoman and Dick Grayson as poc. Not saying characters have to mention it every issue or something, but it's a case where no other writer except for one or two ever acknowledges it.

This may sound ignorant of me but I don't either. I'd even throw Kyle Rayner in there.