Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[9th.]

In this, I don't think the blame is entirely on DC. Not over the last decade, at least. DC *has* given us diversity. Lots of it! But fans don't get behind it. We say online that we want representation, but when push comes to shove we're apparently not willing to pay for it.

The New52 had tons of PoC and several LBGT heroes in solo titles and team books. The New Age of Heroes initiative was largely minority characters. Naomi was a critical darling in 2019 who did the impossible and increased sales as the mini progressed. Black Lightning has seen a few mini's since 2011. Milestone returned. We had the Other History of the DCU. The vast majority of it didn't sell, and even Naomi season 2 doesn't seem to be performing any better than season 1 did (maybe worse?). Aquamen was cancelled before it even hit the shelf, it seems.

Some of those books were awful. New52 Static, for example. But some of them were damn good, better than most of DC's output, like Batwoman, and still didn't last.

I will absolutely give DC blame for not pushing characters like Vixen, Cyborg, Black Lightning, Vibe, and Dr. Light more. Those characters have history and small but loyal fan followings. More effort could and should have been put into elevating their profiles and making them successful. At least feature them heavily in team books, yknow? Try to build them up to the point they might sustain a solo. But in DC's defense, such characters also all failed to carry books in the past too, and we can't expect a company to make a product that loses money just for virtue signaling.

The Big 2 should have started real, long-term efforts at diversification two decades ago, if not three or four, and if they had then the industry wouldn't be so far behind the curve today. The people who were in charge back then deserve a lot of blame; the direct market was healthier then and likely had a better chance of making this sort of stuff stick and endure (especially in the wake of Milestone's success). But the people who buy DC and (to a slightly lesser extent) Marvel buy the characters they've always followed; most of their comic budget goes to the staples like Spidey and Batman. Anything left over in their budget might go to a new or less popular character or title, but with prices like they are and economic insecurity? Not surprising that so few people are taking risks on stuff they're not familiar with.

People hate it when I say the fans carry some of the blame here, but that's how business works. The company has offered us, repeatedly, the thing we ask for and we (mostly) don't support it. Hard to blame DC entirely for this problem when they've held up their end but we don't open our wallets. I don't blame anyone for skipping the bad books like Static, but there's no damn reason a title like Silencer or The Terrifics couldn't have thrived; they were quality titles at least as good as the DC average and better than a lot of stuff that sold better.

And we've all noticed that PoC and LBGT characters do really well in the bookstore OGN market, on webtoon, Scholastic book orders, etc. When Moon Girl, Ms. Marvel, Aqualad, etc., all do well outside the direct market but fail to sell at the LCS, it's pretty clear where the problems lie. I wouldn't blame DC or Marvel at all if they stopped trying to diversify the direct market and put that effort into other formats. A OGN will sell more units, create more fans, make more money, and get less backlash from readers than the

I'm still mad about the New Age line up not panning out. It had everything people complain about when it comes to the topic of diversity. I've always said fans gotta take some of the blame, there's a reason they put of a million Bat books and legacy characters. With that said doesn't absolve DC of any of the blame, they've dropped the ball plenty of times.

[thefinalguy]

I think some of it falls on purists fans who call anything regarding a character who isn't straight white and cis "woke." It's childish and reductive, and it's not just during race-bending or shifts in sexuality (neither I care about happening, but that's a slightly different convo).

It happened to Naomi and to Far Sector, and neither may have been as loud as the backlash a Black Iris West or Starfire have received, but it exists.

It happened to Jon and his coming out, happened to Tim (which I think could've been handled better but it being a thing isn't the issue), and people complained about Batwoman getting a show.

Heavens forbid a comic remotely discuss something political as if comics haven't always done that, but I digress.

I still don't think DC has been perfect with its attempts at diversity, but they have been a thing; there's just a very loud majority minority who hate to see it.

In the realm of a possibly unpopular opinion, I think certain characters would have greater success if their stories were told digitally, in trades over monthlies, or something like a webtoon.

I don't think it's necessarily fair they can't be on the stands as others, and some recent characters like Nubia, Jace Fox, or Yara Flor may have sold better than I'm aware of. But, a push for something to reflect the times, I think, would help push interest in certain characters and allow financial success outside of the major means we know it to be. Interest can be there, but it's easy not to pay for a comic. Others aren't going to keep up month by month, especially since collecting comics physically can stack up.

I think there's potential there with the right plan and branding that might help diversity stick better. A strategy reflective of the times could bode well if done correctly.

[Aahz]

I think some of it falls on purists fans who call anything regarding a character who isn't straight white and cis "woke." It's childish and reductive, and it's not just during race-bending or shifts in sexuality (neither I care about happening, but that's a slightly different convo).

I can totally understand when fans are pissed, when one of their favourite characters gets "bend" just on a whim and without any regard for decades of continuity.
There of course allways some very loud ones, that completely overstep any boundaries, some "out rage channnels" that just do it for the view, and some extreme right wing guys who likely don't even read comics or care about the character.
But I don't see why long term fans should support changes like that.

And we've all noticed that PoC and LBGT characters do really well in the bookstore OGN market, on webtoon, Scholastic book orders, etc. When Moon Girl, Ms. Marvel, Aqualad, etc., all do well outside the direct market but fail to sell at the LCS, it's pretty clear where the problems lie.

I'm not aware the Aqualad was particularly successfull.

and people complained about Batwoman getting a show.

Have you seen the trailers? I mean the creators were basically begging for a backlash.

[thefinalguy]

I can totally understand when fans are pissed, when one of their favourite characters gets "bend" just on a whim and without any regard for decades of continuity.
There of course allways some very loud ones, that completely overstep any boundaries, some "out rage channnels" that just do it for the view, and some extreme right wing guys who likely don't even read comics or care about the character.
But I don't see why long term fans should support changes like that.

I gave examples of instances where characters weren't "bended" in any shape, form, or fashion. It happens as long as they exist.

Plus, in some instances, it just didn't make sense, and those people aren't up in arms when characters get whitewashed, it's not consistent.

Have you seen the trailers? I mean the creators were basically begging for a backlash.

That would have nothing to do with Ruby Rose being attacked online if that were the case. And she's just one of the few actresses who got viral hate after their castings. The backlash wasn't just based on seeming quality.

[John Venus]

Have you seen the trailers? I mean the creators were basically begging for a backlash.

The focus should have been on the poor production, writing and the poor safety conditions for everyone including the star which Ruby Rose spoke out about. Instead, most of the backlash at the show was directed at the lead being a woman and a lesbian wearing Bat symbols.

[Aahz]

I gave examples of instances where characters weren't "bended" in any shape, form, or fashion. It happens as long as they exist.

You mentioned Naomi and Far Sector. I don't think there was much Backlash against both initially.

In case of Naomi, also hard to separate from backlash against Bendis in general, and just making her a member of the JL was also not a good move.

And in case of Far Sector I think it mostly started when they pushed her into the main continuity, and as the main Lantern for 5G/Future State.
And I think with Green Lantern DC has brought them self into a situation where they get backlash no matter what Human Lantern they make the main character.

[Agent Z]

In addition to the problems people have pointed out, Dick's Romani heritage has at times been depicted with a great deal of inaccuracy and racial stereotyping.

[Aahz]

In addition to the problems people have pointed out, Dick's Romani heritage has at times been depicted with a great deal of inaccuracy and racial stereotyping.

Starting with that they called it actually "Gypsy" and not Romani when they did it.

[John Venus]

This may sound ignorant of me but I don't either. I'd even throw Kyle Rayner in there.

Yeah, Kyle was around for 10 years before they introduced a Mexican father for him and the best we've gotten since then was Tom King peppering in some hispanic phrases into his dialogue. Something Kyle never did prior. I don't think that's the representation people are looking for.

While we're at it, I don't consider Zatanna to be Romani either. I know I said the opposite in the past but we only have Tommy Elliot's calling them the g-word because of their magic and the alternate Bombshells universe where she is a Romani Jew. Plus some Romani posters have argued how Zatanna, Scarlet Witch and Dick Grayson are not good representations and that at least they don't acknowledge them as Romanii representations (mileage may vary depending on the poster).

Kendra is Hispanic though, even if she is drawn to be white passing. Her having a hispanic mother was established shortly after her introduction. She's been played by Hispanic/Latino actresses and in Earth 2 she had even darker skin. Throughout the years they've only doubled down on it. So yeah, she counts as Hispanic/Latino representation.

[Ascended]

I can totally understand when fans are pissed, when one of their favourite characters gets "bend" just on a whim and without any regard for decades of continuity.
There of course allways some very loud ones, that completely overstep any boundaries, some "out rage channnels" that just do it for the view, and some extreme right wing guys who likely don't even read comics or care about the character.
But I don't see why long term fans should support changes like that.

Real quick; I didn't notice who you actually quoted, but that wasn't me who was posting about bending characters. Just to clarify.

But on the topic? On principal I'm against bending characters by either race, gender, or sexual orientation. DC has a deep bench of minority characters I'd rather see get used. Don't make Batman gay, give Obsidian some page time. Don't make Wally West black, use Amazing Man. Build those characters up, make them awesome (well, more awesome, those two are cool already), and fans will get behind them. Changing a straight white dude into something else usually feels like a cheap and easy way for DC to try to score diversity points and make CNN headlines, and when they bend somebody, it usually feels (to me) like pandering and not a real, legit effort to rectify this glaring oversight in representation.

It does, however, always piss off Fox News, and I always support pissing them off.

However, I also recognize that there's business realities and market factors which make pushing characters like Vixen, Ryan Choi, Obsidian, etc., a questionable effort. So I acknowledge that in some cases, getting the representation we want requires being a little flexible in how established big name characters are handled. In such cases, all I demand is that the change be something that could conceivably fit within the character's personality and history as we know them, and be handled as organically as possible. Allan Scott being gay and Tim Drake being bi are two examples where I think DC is within those bounds. I'm cool with these things and embrace them. The quality of execution is another matter, especially in Tim's case, but I can easily see how Allan would spend most of his life in the closet, given the generation he came from, and how Tim wouldn't figure this out about himself until now, since he's such an uptight dude so worried about being what other people want/need him to be.

I'm not aware the Aqualad was particularly successfull.

From what I hear his OGN (you brought me the ocean, I think it's called?) did well, just not as well as some of the other ones like Raven and Beast Boy's. Could be wrong though, those are not books anyone in my house is reading....though as a big Kaldur fan I *was* tempted to get his OGN, until I read the reviews and decided it wasn't the Kaldur story I was looking for. But I'm glad it's out there to introduce other people to the character.

[marhawkman]

I'm not saying that he is. I'm just saying that he fits the tall dark and handsome of Dick grayson and the Romani guy pictured at the top. There isn't much difference so to me Dick can be seen as reflecting his Romani part.

The Damian is not a POC stance always puzzles me.

Even after DC has embraced his ethnicity and we have him eating Blood soup, wearing The Thobe, multiple runs that characterise him with brown skin and Asian features.

Even after the DC Asian Celebration anthology.

Even after a mediocre comic site named him the greatest Middle Eastern Super hero following a poll by readers.

Even being an Al Ghul.

Something about that continued denial feels insidious and I don't know why.

I've noted in recent years a lot of people who want to simplify race and ethnicity from the hundreds of actual ethnic groups to just ... two... "PoC" and... "non-PoC'.... Yeah.... It's the most... superficial method of categorizing people that has ever existed as it literally cares about nothing but skin color.

[MakeNightwingGreatAgain]

How would the decision be made? What are the rules for assessing validity? I mean, we have an example of the invalid example from Jimenez's GODS OF GOTHAM run which was of excellent quality.

TBH I dont know. You just kinda have get someone with vision and let them do their thing. Probably work with a select team of writers/editors who are super knowledgeable on the characters or writers/editors who are willing to do the research necessary to learn about the characters. Itll probably take a lot of planning as well, but the end product could possibly turn things around for DC. Just need a little patience and to hire people who want to actually use the content DC has and not just write an OC for the sake of it. If an OC is necessary then do it, but im saying dont do it just for royalties.

[90'sCartoonMan]

So let me get this straight, we can have the Teen Titans in Teen Titans Go!, Young Justice, and Titans.

The Justice Society can be simultaneously in the Stargirl TV show and Black Adam.

And the Justice League gets...an animated movie where they need animals to save them? What the heck is this? Where was my Arrowverse event in the Hall of Justice? I'm not going to say "How hard could it be to adapt the Justice League?" because there are lots of reasons why it could be difficult, but I liked neither the original cut of the movie nor the Zack Snyder version all that much. It feels like DC isn't putting enough effort or love into the Justice League.

[Frontier]

So let me get this straight, we can have the Teen Titans in Teen Titans Go!, Young Justice, and Titans.

The Justice Society can be simultaneously in the Stargirl TV show and Black Adam.

And the Justice League gets...an animated movie where they need animals to save them? What the heck is this? Where was my Arrowverse event in the Hall of Justice? I'm not going to say "How hard could it be to adapt the Justice League?" because there are lots of reasons why it could be difficult, but I liked neither the original cut of the movie nor the Zack Snyder version all that much. It feels like DC isn't putting enough effort or love into the Justice League.

And that's also not including all the stories where the JL needs to get saved or bailed out of trouble by the flavor of the month.

[Agent Z]

So let me get this straight, we can have the Teen Titans in Teen Titans Go!, Young Justice, and Titans.

The Justice Society can be simultaneously in the Stargirl TV show and Black Adam.

And the Justice League gets...an animated movie where they need animals to save them? What the heck is this? Where was my Arrowverse event in the Hall of Justice? I'm not going to say "How hard could it be to adapt the Justice League?" because there are lots of reasons why it could be difficult, but I liked neither the original cut of the movie nor the Zack Snyder version all that much. It feels like DC isn't putting enough effort or love into the Justice League.

The Justice League have been in numerous comics, movies, tv shows and movies. Them not being the stars a few times is not the end of the world.

Also, one of the Titans shows you mentioned was recently cancelled.