Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[KC]

The Titans were originally like 15-20 years younger than their mentors but constant retcons and rebooting have shrunk that number. And no, Deku, it is not just the New 52. Wonder Woman's reboot shrunk her and Donna's age gap. Born to Run made Wally 13 instead of 10 when he and Barry teamed up (and later, Flash Rebirth 1.0 shrunk their ages to the point where now, somehow, Iris and Barry were the same age as Wally magically). The New 52 completed it with the ridiculous shrinking of the Batman family.

Again, you can't use this argument when Hal and Barry are the ones using other characters' names. If Barry is as amazing and iconic as you say he is let him branch out and find his own niche instead of, I don't know, literally reusing Wally concepts like Speed Force and lightning rods and flash family and blah blah. It's blatantly hypocritical.

Shaving off a couple of years means nothing. Wally was the same age as Barry because Barry was dead.

Barry does have his own niche. Using new concepts added to the mythos by Wally does not change that.

Wally used Barry's villains and wore his costume. If anyone is being hypocritical it's Wally West fans for being ok with Wally using things created for Barry and then being annoyed that Barry does the same thing with Wally.

But if carrying on someone else's mythos is really your criteria for being a loser character who can't stand on their own and should just get their own identity and start all over from square one, then boy that accounts for Barry. Dude has relied more of Wally's original content than Wally ever did his.

Wally West's whole existence is built on Barry Allen. As mentioned above, he wore his costume, used his rogue's and lived in his part of the DC universe.

The idea that Barry has relied on more from Wally than Wally does from Barry is a lie and frankly makes me wonder how much Barry Allen Flash you have read.

[TheBatman]

No, I very easily can when Jay and Alan haven't been viable leads since the 1940s. They were dead properties along with the rest of the superhero genre that wasn't the Trinity. Barry and Hal were revamps in a new continuity that overhauled the basic concepts Jay and Alan introduced. Hal's GL mythos in particular has nothing to do with Alan. It is not the same as when Barry and Hal got phased out for Wally and Kyle. Wally had Barry's costume, shared Barry's history and fought Barry's villains, he wouldn't have any connection to Jay without the post-Crisis merger, beyond stories where he could have crossed over the Multiverse.

Kyle continued on with the same continuity established by Hal, the GL mythos was scrapped with a new continuity with a new overhaul of the GL concept. Hal then came back and lead the most successful period the GL property has ever enjoyed.

Yeah, they kept the same numbering. That ceases to matter when you read the actual stories and see Barry meet Jay across the multiverse as a parallel peer, not a predecessor.

You hit the nail on the head.

[Dred]

Shaving off a couple of years means nothing. Wally was the same age as Barry because Barry was dead.

Barry does have his own niche. Using new concepts added to the mythos by Wally does not change that.

Wally used Barry's villains and wore his costume. If anyone is being hypocritical it's Wally West fans for being ok with Wally using things created for Barry and then being annoyed that Barry does the same thing with Wally.

Wally West's whole existence is built on Barry Allen. As mentioned above, he wore his costume, used his rogue's and lived in his part of the DC universe.

The idea that Barry has relied on more from Wally than Wally does from Barry is a lie and frankly makes me wonder how much Barry Allen Flash you have read.

No, Wally was the same age as Barry AND Iris. Barry also wasn't dead, he was just hanging out in the Speed Force. They literally just retconned Barry and Iris to being younger than they should be because he was the lead character and lead characters can't be that old.

It is natural for successors to build off their predecessors. Just as Barry built off Jay. I don't begrudge Barry (Kanigher and Infantino, as well as later writers) for taking many of the aspects of Jay's comics and adapting them and changing them for his purposes. Just as I obviously don't mind Wally building off of Barry. I do mind Barry coming back and stripping Wally just as I would if Jay had done it. That is the distinction. Do you think All Might should come back, take all of Deku's powers, and become the star of the world again? Surely you understand why building off the history of a predecessor is completely different from the reverse? It's why they're different words.

And, for what it's worth, Wally changed the costume! Very similar, but there are still unique aspects of Wally's costume that Barry uses today. Just wasn't as big a overhaul as the change from Jay to Barry. Not that the costume is as important as the name.

How much Barry have you read? I'd say a good 90% of his stories since coming back have hinged entirely on the Speed Force. You know, that thing from Wally's lore? Name one thing from Barry's lore that accounts for even half of Wally's stories after taking over. Because it sure as hell isn't science lessons (and time travel started with Jay!). Let's not even get into the fact that, even though Wally "took" Barry's villains, it was Wally's run that actually characterized them completely into new, well developed villains. The Thawne we all know and love was characterized in ROBA, after all. There's exceptions, of course, but I think it's a good thing for the successor to improve on the predecessor.

You do realize Barry Allen would not be The Flash if Jay didn't exist, right? You realize Barry Allen would not exist if not for the original concept of The Flash started by Jay by Fox and Lampert, right? You have to realize this. Once your trump card is "He wouldn't exist without his predecessor" then we get right back to my original point -- you guys don't actually care about that, otherwise you would be clamboring for Alan and Jay to take up the mantles again. You like who you started reading with, which is fine, but don't try to justify it hypocritically.

[SiegePerilous02]

Barry wasn't a viable lead in the 80s.

Yes, I am well aware of that, which is why Wally replaced him.
But did you remember that superheroes in general were not a dead genre the way they were before Barry replaced Jay and ushered in the Silver Age?

You wanting clearly still viable characters to be phased out to make way for successors that might be as successful doesn't make any sense. They had reason to do it back then that they don't have to do it (however gradually) with Batman and co now. You saying it worked certain times in the past under different circumstances and that you personally think it would be better story telling is all you are offering to support that claim.

Their properties were on their way to being dead when they reimagined them instead of just letting them die.

Yeah but but the very genre they were a part of wasn't on the way down with them like it was with Jay and Alan.

I don't get how you can't grasp this, how you pretend that Barry and Hal were always great and successful and that's what sets them apart from Jay and Alan. I do not get why you are creating this distinction that doesn't even support your point.

Actual publication history shows that Hal and Barry were successful in ways Jay and Alan weren't, not that the latter pair were never successful or that the former pair didn't go through rough patches.

The Golden Age of superhero comics was more of a rough draft for what came afterward. Why do you think the versions of the Flash and GL mythos established by Barry and Hal carried on even without them, yet Jay and Alan can only be successful in JSA stories or as supporting mentor characters, and need to be merged into the main canon to even be relevant? Alan still isn't very relevant to the GL mythos established in the Silver Age that continues to this day.

But if carrying on someone else's mythos is really your criteria for being a loser character who can't stand on their own and should just get their own identity and start all over from square one,

Give the other characters a shot when the main ones stop being viable. Which they clearly are not, in both companies, so why get rid of them?
Why do you think this is the only avenue to get success for Dick's generation and the generations below? Like I said, you're not creating a strong impression of them if you think it needs to happen that way (and I don't think it does). Lets have writers actually get creative and think outside the box. "It worked with Wally West and Mark Waid, let's do it across the board!" is not being creative, it's just copying what is perceived as a successful formula. While ignoring the fact that Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman are not close to the gutter the way Barry may have been once upon a time.

then boy that accounts for Barry. Dude has relied more of Wally's original content than Wally ever did his.

Well, there's lots of Speed Force stories and cameos (but not much else) for Wally's villains. That's pretty much it. The other thing that unfortunately defines modern Barry is his dead mom, which Wally didn't have. The costume, the Rogues, the time travel stories, the yellow clad evil speedster nemesis, the rogues, the reporter girlfriend/wife, twin children, etc. Barry did first (and Jay). I'd say they copy a lot from each other.

[KC]

No, Wally was the same age as Barry AND Iris. Barry also wasn't dead, he was just hanging out in the Speed Force. They literally just retconned Barry and Iris to being younger than they should be because he was the lead character and lead characters can't be that old.

It is natural for successors to build off their predecessors. Just as Barry built off Jay. I don't begrudge Barry (Kanigher and Infantino, as well as later writers) for taking many of the aspects of Jay's comics and adapting them and changing them for his purposes. Just as I obviously don't mind Wally building off of Barry. I do mind Barry coming back and stripping Wally just as I would if Jay had done it. That is the distinction. Do you think All Might should come back, take all of Deku's powers, and become the star of the world again? Surely you understand why building off the history of a predecessor is completely different from the reverse? It's why they're different words.

And, for what it's worth, Wally changed the costume! Very similar, but there are still unique aspects of Wally's costume that Barry uses today. Just wasn't as big a overhaul as the change from Jay to Barry. Not that the costume is as important as the name.

How much Barry have you read? I'd say a good 90% of his stories since coming back have hinged entirely on the Speed Force. You know, that thing from Wally's lore? Name one thing from Barry's lore that accounts for even half of Wally's stories after taking over. Because it sure as hell isn't science lessons (and time travel started with Jay!). Let's not even get into the fact that, even though Wally "took" Barry's villains, it was Wally's run that actually characterized them completely into new, well developed villains. The Thawne we all know and love was characterized in ROBA, after all. There's exceptions, of course, but I think it's a good thing for the successor to improve on the predecessor.

You do realize Barry Allen would not be The Flash if Jay didn't exist, right? You realize Barry Allen would not exist if not for the original concept of The Flash started by Jay by Fox and Lampert, right? You have to realize this. Once your trump card is "He wouldn't exist without his predecessor" then we get right back to my original point -- you guys don't actually care about that, otherwise you would be clamboring for Alan and Jay to take up the mantles again. You like who you started reading with, which is fine, but don't try to justify it hypocritically.

I don't think Barry aged in the Speed Force and they also de-aged him at the New 52.

It's all a part of the same universe so it makes sense that the idea that is created will be used by other people in the universe. Especially when it is tied to one character's universe and especially when it is tied to a character's powers. In a shared universe, everything is built on other ideas and that's ok.

The MHA and the DC universe are fundamentally different in the way they are run. So it isn't exactly a great comparison.

Barry using one thing established in Wally's run does not mean that he uses more of Wally's lore than Wally does of Barry's lore. Barry still uses all of the things established in his run. His villains, his job, Iris as a love interest . Wally used all of barry's villains, he might have changed it a bit but he fundamentally still wore Barry's costume. Wally's whole universe is built on Barry's. Barry's villains in Wally's run were still fundamentally the same.

Wally West was built on the building blocks of Barry Allen and I never said that was a bad thing. As I said in another post I would be fine with Jay and Alan coming back they can all exist at the same time.

[Dred]

Yes, I am well aware of that, which is why Wally replaced him.
But did you remember that superheroes in general were not a dead genre the way they were before Barry replaced Jay and ushered in the Silver Age?

You wanting clearly still viable characters to be phased out to make way for successors that might be as successful doesn't make any sense. They had reason to do it back then that they don't have to do it (however gradually) with Batman and co now. You saying it worked certain times in the past under different circumstances and that you personally think it would be better story telling is all you are offering to support that claim.

Except characters at the height of their success are replaced (Wally) while Barry can have worse sales than Wally or Bart (despite his short tenure) ever had in the New 52 and no one even bats an eye, they just reboot The Flash and carry on. There's special treatment here that you're refusing to acknowledge and I guarantee you it has nothing to do with which character is better.

Yeah but but the very genre they were a part of wasn't on the way down with them like it was with Jay and Alan.

Yes it was? There's a reason the Silver Age ended. Lots of characters weren't doing so well. Lots of companies folding again (Hello, Charlton!). It wasn't as extreme as the Golden Age decline but that's partly because the industry had already lived through a decline and was better prepared for it. Which leads me to this:

Actual publication history shows that Hal and Barry were successful in ways Jay and Alan weren't, not that the latter pair were never successful or that the former pair didn't go through rough patches.

The Golden Age of superhero comics was more of a rough draft for what came afterward. Why do you think the versions of the Flash and GL mythos established by Barry and Hal carried on even without them, yet Jay and Alan can only be successful in JSA stories or as supporting mentor characters, and need to be merged into the main canon to even be relevant? Alan still isn't very relevant to the GL mythos established in the Silver Age that continues to this day.

Because they saw it coming. They had a better grasp of the market. So, instead of just cancelling comics because they sold bad like every other non-narratively driven ongoing comic, the big companies decided to come up with new ideas and turn the collapse into something that they could rebrand. Que Crisis on Infinite Earths, a combination mega reboot and continuity palate cleanser. Also, again, The Flash mythos is far more heavily based around Wally's run than it is Barry's. Not sure I can find a Flash comic without the mention of the Speed Force since Barry came back.

Give the other characters a shot when the main ones stop being viable. Which they clearly are not, in both companies, so why get rid of them?

Sure, then why did we give Hal and Barry another shot? That is where my problem starts. Both Hal and Barry got their chance, proved unviable, then came back! Hal has had a pretty consistently strong run but you definitely can't say that for Barry. But they'd rather toss new #1s at them to get some sales up.

Why do you think this is the only avenue to get success for Dick's generation and the generations below? Like I said, you're not creating a strong impression of them if you think it needs to happen that way (and I don't think it does). Lets have writers actually get creative and think outside the box. "It worked with Wally West and Mark Waid, let's do it across the board!" is not being creative, it's just copying what is perceived as a successful formula. While ignoring the fact that Batman, Superman and Wonder Woman are not close to the gutter the way Barry may have been once upon a time.

I think it is the only avenue for success because there is a limited number of comic books DC can publish and if you do not move on you can't make new characters anymore. DC's already fecund with characters they can't give proper attention because they'd be risky or they're not Didio's pet project (like trying to make Marvel expies! Go figure).

Well, there's lots of Speed Force stories and cameos (but not much else) for Wally's villains. That's pretty much it. The other thing that unfortunately defines modern Barry is his dead mom, which Wally didn't have. The costume, the Rogues, the time travel stories, the yellow clad evil speedster nemesis, the rogues, the reporter girlfriend/wife, twin children, etc. Barry did first (and Jay). I'd say they copy a lot from each other.

The Rogues we're reading now weren't even defined by Barry's run! They were invented there, but their characterizations (with the exception of Scudder and Glider, I'll grant you, since Morrison and Waid replaced Scudder with McCulloch) were created by Johns. Thawne's modern characterization that we all know and love, the impetus and obsession with Barry, was made by Waid. Before that he just hated Barry for messing up his schemes. It's like saying Wally's run is based on Barry because Wally debuted in Barry's comic. Yes, that's true, but the actual content and mythos and characterization stem from Wally's time as The Flash with Waid and Johns writing them. . Reporter Girlfriend is Superman, and comparing Linda to Iris is a huge disservice.

Barry did not have twin children until Wally West's run, when Waid retconned the Tornado Twins to being Iris and Barry's children. The "Twin children run in the family" thing started with Waid. Cobalt Blue (ugh, I know, but still) and Barry? Waid. Tornado Twins being Barry's kids? Waid. Wally's kids being twins? Waid (though Waid's imagination of them was changed later by Johns -- Waid had Iris West II and Barry West, Johns came up with Jai). Before that they were long distant descendants who showed up for a single LOSH -- they weren't even Flash characters until Wally's run in an arc called Race Against Time.

This is what I mean. Attributing everything to Barry to suit yourself when it's baloney. I'll give you the costumes -- not just Flash and Reverse Flash, but all the Rogues costumes and whatnot. That's all Barry's run and Infantino. I guess you could say the Cosmic Treadmill is. You can also say the multiverse is, which is a pretty important distinction though it doesn't come up in a lot of Flash stories. Time Travel stories originate with Jay, though I suppose it's fair to say they were more heavily emphasized and became more integral to The Flash with Barry, the same way I point out how things that originate in Barry's run can be defined in Wally's.

Hell, when Kyle came on the scene they literally got rid of the giant space cop organization thing that was Hal's mythos. Hal's mythos persisted because Hal came back. Kyle was doing new and different stuff. I'll grant you, definitely not as successful as GL Rebirth and everything that followed, but I think it's disingenuous to say Kyle was heavily reliant on Hal's mythos for more than just his origin (powerset, obviously belongs to Alan).

[Frontier]

Sure, then why did we give Hal and Barry another shot? That is where my problem starts. Both Hal and Barry got their chance, proved unviable, then came back! Hal has had a pretty consistently strong run but you definitely can't say that for Barry. But they'd rather toss new #1s at them to get some sales up.

Didn't the Manpul/Buccelato run sell well?

Williamson's Flash is also one of DC's better selling solo books, especially for a non-Trinity character.

[Dred]

Didn't the Manpul/Buccelato run sell well?

Williamson's Flash is also one of DC's better selling solo books, especially for a non-Trinity character.

It sold fine, as did most core New 52 books on the backs of #1s and momentum. After Manapul left, Flash sales became worse than anything Wally or Bart ever put out and were atrocious by the standards of the comic in general.

Barry's gotten 3 #1s in 10 years. Wally just had the one back in 87. Barry was 50+ comics in with awful sales. Wally's second shot didn't get 10 before they had already decided to replace him with Barry.

Williamson's Flash run is DC's second best selling solo hero comic, or at least has been on average since Rebirth started. No denying that. Throw enough #1s out and I guess one sticks. I assume the show and the new #1 starting place is the impetus for that. Barry is certainly way, way more popular than he had been before because of that.

Amusingly, Bart's sales technically crush everyone due to new #1 and the excitement of it, but we all know how that went and how it would've gone given a bit more time.

[Frontier]

It sold fine, as did most core New 52 books on the backs of #1s and momentum. After Manapul left, Flash sales became worse than anything Wally or Bart ever put out and were atrocious by the standards of the comic in general.

Well, yeah, Venditti and Van Jensen kind of torpedoed everything

Williamson's Flash run is DC's second best selling solo hero comic, or at least has been on average since Rebirth started. No denying that. Throw enough #1s out and I guess one sticks. I assume the show and the new #1 starting place is the impetus for that. Barry is certainly way, way more popular than he had been before because of that.

The fact that it's a solidly-written book, despite my issues with it, can't hurt either .

[Dred]

Well, yeah, Venditti and Van Jensen kind of torpedoed everything

The fact that it's a solidly-written book, despite my issues with it, can't hurt either .

How solidly a book is written has nothing to do with its first arc's sales, really, and that's where the consistent numbers start high and essentially keep the lead as everyone's sales slowly lower due to higher numbering.

Solid is probably the last word I'd use for Williamson. Dude's quality is as inconsistent as it comes, alternating bouncing between good, bad, and mediocre like a ping pong ball. I'd favor mediocre and bad before good but there's a couple of good stories in his 70ish comics.

[Frontier]

How solidly a book is written has nothing to do with its first arc's sales, really, and that's where the consistent numbers start high and essentially keep the lead as everyone's sales slowly lower due to higher numbering.

But it can't hurt .

Solid is probably the last word I'd use for Williamson. Dude's quality is as inconsistent as it comes, alternating bouncing between good, bad, and mediocre like a ping pong ball. I'd favor mediocre and bad before good but there's a couple of good stories in his 70ish comics.

I'd lean more towards good overall, with any issues I have with the run being more personal as far as his handling of Barry and in re-establishing certain elements of the Flash mythos, but to each their own .

[Dred]

But it can't hurt .

I'd lean more towards good overall, with any issues I have with the run being more personal as far as his handling of Barry and in re-establishing certain elements of the Flash mythos, but to each their own .

I dunno he is definitely a major culprit in the continuance misery Barry that I've come to loathe.

Most of the things I like Williamson never commits on. Lots of lip service to fans like me and absolutely never any payoff.

Then you get Goosepod. Boy do I hate every single little thing about his character, and that's the one character Williamson seems to promote and love more than anyone else in the comic.

[josai21]

Characters and the universe can progress without forcing the "Silver Age" generation from giving up their mantles. As long as there are good stories being told with these characters and people to tell good stories with them, I think DC will never be "stagnant"

Wait 20 years and we will see if you have the same opinion when Bruce is younger than you are.

Lack of progression robs any story of risk and enjoyment. It is not a good story. I’ll give that it can be entertaining, but spongebob is entertaining. I’d like to think Batman is worth more thought and story telling than mindless humor.

[josai21]

Also I think people are misunderstanding the argument.

I don’t think dred is arguing that an intentional push to force the “iconic generation” our should happen. Rather we are arguing for change that matters. That those characters do grow old and change. The argument is not “kill Bruce tomorrow”

The argument is let’s see Bruce at 40...50...and dicks generation slowly taking over. Let natural progression happen.

[Frontier]

I dunno he is definitely a major culprit in the continuance misery Barry that I've come to loathe.

It's like he can't make up his mind whether he wants Barry to be happy or miserable.

Everytime we have someone declaring that Barry is one of the most optimistic and happy heroes we get another moment where Barry is unhappy and down in the dumps with people claiming the opposite about him. Even when Barry goes "from now on, I'll be a happier and optimistic hero again!" it doesn't stick.

Though even having said that I think Williamson writes the strongest Barry of most modern writers who usually just cut-and-paste Wally's personality onto him.

Most of the things I like Williamson never commits on. Lots of lip service to fans like me and absolutely never any payoff.

Bart's back at least. That just leaves Jay and Jesse (and maybe Max?).

Then you get Goosepod. Boy do I hate every single little thing about his character, and that's the one character Williamson seems to promote and love more than anyone else in the comic.

I like Godspeed enough even if he's far from my favorite Speedster (or villain Speedster for that matter), but he does have a cool design.

The argument is let’s see Bruce at 40...50...and dicks generation slowly taking over. Let natural progression happen.

I think Bruce hit 40 in Morrison's run.