Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[Agent Z]

It’s no more ridiculous than Superman taking punches from Doomsday but exposure to a rock can kill him.

That rock is specifically stated to be able to hurt or kill him because of it's unusual nature. There is no explanation for why a handgun is more dangerous to Diana than a punch from Superman or Doomsday.

[LordUltimus]

It’s no more ridiculous than Superman taking punches from Doomsday but exposure to a rock can kill him.

If it was a radioactive bullet, I'd be a lot more forgiving.

[SiegePerilous02]

Wonder Woman did start to fly when Superman did, she just got established as riding air currents so she needed something faster. So the groundwork was already in place.

Superman started to fly in the 1941-1943 range, didn't he? Wonder Woman didn't start gliding on air currents until 1958, after Marston had passed. She didn't get full blown flight until the 80s.

Also, with Superman being portrayed as much more powerful as the rest of the League like he usually is, he actually makes all the other DC heroes redundant.

He's really not vastly more powerful than the rest. He and WW are fast, but the speedsters are faster and can steal speed. Diana and J'onn are not quite as strong, but Diana is a better fighter, has magical tools and none of his weaknesses, and is a better strategist. Clark also of course doesn't have J'onn's shape shifting and telepathic abilities. Aquaman has a pretty powerful magical tool at his disposal and command of sea monsters, other powers which Superman doesn't have. He's not a magic user. Batman's a better detective, even the consistently more intelligent pre-Crisis Superman went to Batman for help solving crimes (and Lex has always been smarter than him). Considering the characters gathered to face him in the movie, the only ones he shouldn't be steamrolling over in a straight fight where he isn't fucking around are Diana and Barry, and Barry was a rookie who barely knew how his powers worked, so that one works.

The "he's too powerful and makes everyone redundant" argument may be fair and balancing the playing field necessary to an extent, but it seems other characters get less weaknesses, get to firmly be among the best in their niche, while he keeps all his weaknesses and being the most powerful all rounder and specifically the strongest is constantly questioned now. Is is really all about fan egos in the end?

It’s no more ridiculous than Superman taking punches from Doomsday but exposure to a rock can kill him.

If bullets bounce off of Superman, they really should be bouncing off of Wonder Woman at this point.
A punch from Doomsday is going to be more powerful than a bullet from a hand gun.

[LordUltimus]

Superman started to fly in the 1941-1943 range, didn't he? Wonder Woman didn't start gliding on air currents until 1958, after Marston had passed. She didn't get full blown flight until the 80s.

Fair enough.

He's really not vastly more powerful than the rest. He and WW are fast, but the speedsters are faster and can steal speed. Diana and J'onn are not quite as strong, but Diana is a better fighter, has magical tools and none of his weaknesses, and is a better strategist. Clark also of course doesn't have J'onn's shape shifting and telepathic abilities. Aquaman has a pretty powerful magical tool at his disposal and command of sea monsters, other powers which Superman doesn't have. He's not a magic user. Batman's a better detective, even the consistently more intelligent pre-Crisis Superman went to Batman for help solving crimes (and Lex has always been smarter than him). Considering the characters gathered to face him in the movie, the only ones he shouldn't be steamrolling over in a straight fight where he isn't fucking around are Diana and Barry, and Barry was a rookie who barely knew how his powers worked, so that one works.

He's usually presented as such. Hell, Snyder's Batman had his anti-Wonder Woman plan be "throw Superman at her".

The "he's too powerful and makes everyone redundant" argument may be fair and balancing the playing field necessary to an extent, but it seems other characters get less weaknesses, get to firmly be among the best in their niche, while he keeps all his weaknesses and being the most powerful all rounder and specifically the strongest is constantly questioned now. Is is really all about fan egos in the end?

He still has the greatest range of powers of everyone outside of Martian Manhunter, and his weaknesses are far less common than J'Onn's. Even his weakness towards magic has been greatly lessened from what it used to be, and he usually willpowers through kryptonite anyways.

If bullets bounce off of Superman, they really should be bouncing off of Wonder Woman at this point.
A punch from Doomsday is going to be more powerful than a bullet from a hand gun.

Yes, thank you.

[SiegePerilous02]

He's usually presented as such. Hell, Snyder's Batman had his anti-Wonder Woman plan be "throw Superman at her".

That was Johns, and I wouldn't say it's necessarily a guarantee that Superman will beat her. It's actually kind of a compliment to her, Batman's utterly f***ed if she goes rogue and he can't figure out another way than calling Clark to deal with it. Whereas with Clark he's got Kryptonite.

He still has the greatest range of powers of everyone outside of Martian Manhunter, and his weaknesses are far less common than J'Onn's. Even his weakness towards magic has been greatly lessened from what it used to be, and he usually willpowers through kryptonite anyways.

He's got the greatest range, but isn't at the top in anything except strength, and a lot of the others are not that far behind him. And he's still lacking in some powers, like magic. And I'd say Diana's lasso, bracelets and tiara are roughly equivalent to his extra stuff like heat vision and arctic breath.
The various varieties of Kryptonite seem pretty common with how often they pop up. Yeah he overcomes it, but heroes are meant to overcome their weaknesses. When he doesn't, another League member is there to pick up the slack for him.
How lessened is the magic weakness? Because if it just means that he is no longer particularly vulnerable to it more than others (for no reason)...then good.

[king81992]

One of the reasons why Cyborg's previous solo series have failed is because writers refused to use Titans/ TT characters as members of his supporting cast.

[jetengine]

One of the reasons why Cyborg's previous solo series have failed is because writers refused to use Titans/ TT characters as members of his supporting cast.

Also because they focus on using Cyborgs and tech based stuff as his villains instead of giving him a varied rogues gallery

[LordUltimus]

[QUOTE=SiegePerilous02;4202530]

That was Johns, and I wouldn't say it's necessarily a guarantee that Superman will beat her. It's actually kind of a compliment to her, Batman's utterly f***ed if she goes rogue and he can't figure out another way than calling Clark to deal with it. Whereas with Clark he's got Kryptonite.

My mistake. It's also been a while, so who knows what counts.

He's got the greatest range, but isn't at the top in anything except strength, and a lot of the others are not that far behind him. And he's still lacking in some powers, like magic. And I'd say Diana's lasso, bracelets and tiara are roughly equivalent to his extra stuff like heat vision and arctic breath.

Having a massive range still counts for quite a bit, and most of the time having a jack of all trades is better than having a finely honed expert since you can count on the jack being able to solve more problems overall. Magic isn't such a big deal since Superman rarely fights against magic anyways, especially on his own, and I disagree heavily on that last point, they don't cover the vast versatility having effective temperature control gives you, to the point where WW's Earth-3 counterpart has heat vision which she doesn't have.

[spoilerThe various varieties of Kryptonite seem pretty common with how often they pop up. Yeah he overcomes it, but heroes are meant to overcome their weaknesses. When he doesn't, another League member is there to pick up the slack for him.
How lessened is the magic weakness? Because if it just means that he is no longer particularly vulnerable to it more than others (for no reason)...then good.

Kryptonite isn't common in-universe, it's just that either Lex Luthor has it because he's super-rich, or an alien can find it since there's more in space.

Superman can at least tank magical attacks that would otherwise kill normal people, it's just a case where if it's his invulnerability versus, say, a sword that can cut through anything, the sword will make some good headway at least.

[Pinsir]

Its time for Supergirl to 100% replace Superman in all matters!
>>> Supergirl is the founding member of the JL
>>> Supergirl becomes Wonder Woman's girlfriend
>>> Supergirl necked Zod

[SiegePerilous02]

[QUOTE=LordUltimus;4202701]

My mistake. It's also been a while, so who knows what counts.

Yeah unfortunately, that's par the course for DC.

Having a massive range still counts for quite a bit, and most of the time having a jack of all trades is better than having a finely honed expert since you can count on the jack being able to solve more problems overall. Magic isn't such a big deal since Superman rarely fights against magic anyways, especially on his own, and I disagree heavily on that last point, they don't cover the vast versatility having effective temperature control gives you, to the point where WW's Earth-3 counterpart has heat vision which she doesn't have.

IDK, he may be a jack of all trades but it's not as if some of the other heavy hitters in the JL aren't versatile either even beyond their niches, and with the DCU being the big crazy location that it is, they are all the stars of their own stories. Him being out there being the best is irrelevant if he's not around to deal with a situation, because even he cannot be everywhere at once. It doesn't undermine their stories.

I'd disagree, the bracelets are indestructible and shown as being able to deflect even Darkseid's Omega Beams, the tiara is shown as being able to slice even him, and the lasso (in its original incarnation, which it should have stayed) can force obedience on anyone it snares, and cannot be broken. Coupled with the other Amazon weapons she gets like swords, shields and bows and arrows, on paper she has more "extras" than he does even if they do not have the same exact application. Minus the weaknesses plus the superior melee skills, it seems that those who think she should be even in physical stats just want her to be superior, not equal.

Kryptonite isn't common in-universe, it's just that either Lex Luthor has it because he's super-rich, or an alien can find it since there's more in space.

It's usually more than just Lex and random aliens who have Kryptonite. Hell, back in the Silver Age it seemed everybody could obtain it, logic be damned.

[LordUltimus]

IDK, he may be a jack of all trades but it's not as if some of the other heavy hitters in the JL aren't versatile either even beyond their niches, and with the DCU being the big crazy location that it is, they are all the stars of their own stories. Him being out there being the best is irrelevant if he's not around to deal with a situation, because even he cannot be everywhere at once. It doesn't undermine their stories.

Yeah, but when he's on the Justice League or on a team-up, it feels like either the rest of the League only exists to throw kryptonite away, or the writer makes an equally powerful bad guy to keep him busy to give the rest something to do. If Superman existed in his own universe, it wouldn't be a problem.

I'd disagree, the bracelets are indestructible and shown as being able to deflect even Darkseid's Omega Beams, the tiara is shown as being able to slice even him, and the lasso (in its original incarnation, which it should have stayed) can force obedience on anyone it snares, and cannot be broken. Coupled with the other Amazon weapons she gets like swords, shields and bows and arrows, on paper she has more "extras" than he does even if they do not have the same exact application. Minus the weaknesses plus the superior melee skills, it seems that those who think she should be even in physical stats just want her to be superior, not equal.

Superman has resisted the Omega Beams before, and he has access to Kryptonian technology that has done all those things. I can't speak for everyone, but for me it's a lot easier to accept Wonder Woman being lower than Kryptonian when it's obvious she brings something that the resident Kryptonian doesn't, even if it's just being the leader.

It's usually more than just Lex and random aliens who have Kryptonite. Hell, back in the Silver Age it seemed everybody could obtain it, logic be damned.

That was decades ago, and they specifically had a story that turned all Kryptonite on Earth into iron because it was too common. Nowadays, Kryptonite is so precious that criminals are terrified to even say the word out loud even when they know Superman is off planet.

[king81992]

Also because they focus on using Cyborgs and tech based stuff as his villains instead of giving him a varied rogues gallery

I wouldn't mind that if the tech villains that the writers came up with didn't suck. For Cyborg's rogue gallery writers should use some Titans/TT villains and poach some villains from other franchises that aren't being used. I think that Ultra Humanite would be an excellent villain for Cyborg.

[SiegePerilous02]

Yeah, but when he's on the Justice League or on a team-up, it feels like either the rest of the League only exists to throw kryptonite away, or the writer makes an equally powerful bad guy to keep him busy to give the rest something to do. If Superman existed in his own universe, it wouldn't be a problem.

Either than or they are nerfing him down to prop up others, which is just as bad.

Writing him out of a JL story when he isn't needed is pretty much how it should be. Either that, or a JL writer worth their salt would write a story based around Superman at his best and the situation still being so crazy that he alone isn't enough. If they are not writing the book on that level, they either are not suited to write it in the first place or they shouldn't have him or the other heavy hitters in it. In which case, maybe they should be writing a street level team book.

Superman has resisted the Omega Beams before, and he has access to Kryptonian technology that has done all those things. I can't speak for everyone, but for me it's a lot easier to accept Wonder Woman being lower than Kryptonian when it's obvious she brings something that the resident Kryptonian doesn't, even if it's just being the leader.

He has access to Kryptonian tech, but he is not known for carrying tools around with him the way Wonder Woman does her lasso and other magical items. How often do we see Superman flying around with anything like that? Does he have anything that functions like the lasso, either the original incarnation or the lasso of truth. And even if he does, does it get regular usage?
She's almost as strong as him, and is a better fighter, which makes up for the slightly lower stats and allows her to possibly beat him if they throw down (not that it's a guaranteed win)

And again, when you break down the powers of the rest of the JL, you end up with a list of skills he either doesn't have or isn't the best at.

That was decades ago, and they specifically had a story that turned all Kryptonite on Earth into iron because it was too common. Nowadays, Kryptonite is so precious that criminals are terrified to even say the word out loud even when they know Superman is off planet.

The Kryptonite No More stuff was unsurprisingly undone.
Even if Lex is the only one carrying it around, he get so much page time that it's not as if Kryptonite is ever gone for an extended length of time. Plus there is Metallo.

[LordUltimus]

Either than or they are nerfing him down to prop up others, which is just as bad.

Writing him out of a JL story when he isn't needed is pretty much how it should be. Either that, or a JL writer worth their salt would write a story based around Superman at his best and the situation still being so crazy that he alone isn't enough. If they are not writing the book on that level, they either are not suited to write it in the first place or they shouldn't have him or the other heavy hitters in it. In which case, maybe they should be writing a street level team book.

You don't have to nerf him, just give everyone else an upgrade, that's basically what happened to Batman after he got popular.

He has access to Kryptonian tech, but he is not known for carrying tools around with him the way Wonder Woman does her lasso and other magical items. How often do we see Superman flying around with anything like that? Does he have anything that functions like the lasso, either the original incarnation or the lasso of truth. And even if he does, does it get regular usage?

The only magic items Diana has regular access to is the lasso, tiara, and bracelets. For the first, Clark has super-hearing to hear someones pulse to tell if they're lying, the tiara is a long-range weapon which is covered by heat vision, and the bracelets aren't anymore indestructible than he is.

She's almost as strong as him, and is a better fighter, which makes up for the slightly lower stats and allows her to possibly beat him if they throw down (not that it's a guaranteed win)

Except she doesn't get treated in his weight class more often than not.

And again, when you break down the powers of the rest of the JL, you end up with a list of skills he either doesn't have or isn't the best at.

Outside of magic spells and telepathy, not really. He has super-intelligence.

The Kryptonite No More stuff was unsurprisingly undone.
Even if Lex is the only one carrying it around, he get so much page time that it's not as if Kryptonite is ever gone for an extended length of time. Plus there is Metallo.

It doesn't have to be gone for a long period of time, just be clear that it's rare in-universe. Aliens with Kryptonian-level super strength are rare, but he keeps running into them.

[9th.]

Also because they focus on using Cyborgs and tech based stuff as his villains instead of giving him a varied rogues gallery

This was definitely the problem

I almost threw up when I saw this