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  1. #811
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I conceptually don't like an outsider Aquaman (never seen a version where he was raised there) ruling Atlantis.

    I don't like the later versions
    that had Thanagar, Atlantis, Krypton and Themyscira as racist societies and wind up them or their remnants invading the ordinary civilizations of Earth.

    Bruce and Ollie were both better characters before being becoming absolute jerks in the post-COIE era.

    Good family members turning bad (sometimes outright evil, sometimes just jerkish) irritates me. We had Wally's parents post-COIE. Alura during the latter post-COIE time. Jor-El and Zor-El currently. The changeup from Ira West to abusive William West. Sardath. Catherine Todd and Crystal Brown weren't the best mothers originally, to say the least, but definitely took a turn for the worse in New 52.

    I don't like every hero to have a villain with personal connections. A lot of people find the more personal connection more dramatic. I did too - the first couple times I saw it. But now, it’s like every hero has to have a villain that was their sibling/friend/lover/mentor/student/etc. or either killed their parents or otherwise inflicted great trauma on them in childhood and it’s just ridiculous. It's even more irritating when it's a retcon, because I saw how they met, how their enmity developed and now it's all replaced by something else, mostly to further the angst.

  2. #812
    Spectacular Member Fromper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I don't like every hero to have a villain with personal connections. A lot of people find the more personal connection more dramatic. I did too - the first couple times I saw it. But now, it’s like every hero has to have a villain that was their sibling/friend/lover/mentor/student/etc. or either killed their parents or otherwise inflicted great trauma on them in childhood and it’s just ridiculous. It's even more irritating when it's a retcon, because I saw how they met, how their enmity developed and now it's all replaced by something else, mostly to further the angst.
    This was actually my biggest complaint about Jack Nicholson's Joker in the 80s Batman movie.

  3. #813
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I conceptually don't like an outsider Aquaman (never seen a version where he was raised there) ruling Atlantis.

    I don't like the later versions
    that had Thanagar, Atlantis, Krypton and Themyscira as racist societies and wind up them or their remnants invading the ordinary civilizations of Earth.

    Bruce and Ollie were both better characters before being becoming absolute jerks in the post-COIE era.

    Good family members turning bad (sometimes outright evil, sometimes just jerkish) irritates me. We had Wally's parents post-COIE. Alura during the latter post-COIE time. Jor-El and Zor-El currently. The changeup from Ira West to abusive William West. Sardath. Catherine Todd and Crystal Brown weren't the best mothers originally, to say the least, but definitely took a turn for the worse in New 52.

    I don't like every hero to have a villain with personal connections. A lot of people find the more personal connection more dramatic. I did too - the first couple times I saw it. But now, it’s like every hero has to have a villain that was their sibling/friend/lover/mentor/student/etc. or either killed their parents or otherwise inflicted great trauma on them in childhood and it’s just ridiculous. It's even more irritating when it's a retcon, because I saw how they met, how their enmity developed and now it's all replaced by something else, mostly to further the angst.
    They don't need to have a personal connection, but it does need to have some kind of internal logic to me. Two random characters fighting each other isn't very interesting to me.
    Last edited by mathew101281; 07-29-2019 at 10:54 PM.

  4. #814
    Astonishing Member phantom1592's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    They don't need to have a personal connection, but it does need to have some kind of internal logic to me. To random characters fighting each other isn't very interesting to me.
    What do you mean 'internal logic'? Fromper mentioned '89 Joker. Honestly that didn't bother me much at the time... but if they had cut out that scene entirely, the movie would have played the same way. Joker takes over mob. Starts killing everyone with chemistry. Batman solves his riddle... Joker holds city hostage and calls Batman out... Big fight for the life of the city. Adding in 'Oh yeah... he killed my parents' wasn't particularly necessary. It was really about 3 lines of dialogue added to the show. In fact a director cut could have been Joker: "You can't kill me... You MADE me! You dropped me into those chemicals!!" Batman: "I've read your file. You were psychotic long before you ever met me." Plot would have played out the same.

    For that matter Heath Ledger's Joker didn't have a personal connection... .Nor did Penguin... Sometimes I think 'I want to do something.... and XXXX is constantly stopping me from doing XXXXX' is plenty of reason for people to fight.

  5. #815
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mathew101281 View Post
    They don't need to have a personal connection, but it does need to have some kind of internal logic to me. To random characters fighting each other isn't very interesting to me.
    Internal logic to me is a hero trying to stop a villain from hurting or robbing others. Internal logic is not "it turns out this guy I'm fighting is my mentor's long lost twin brother we never knew existed" or "my lover was turned into a monster so we're going to fight now" or "my brother always hated me and now that I'm a superhero, he's decided to attack me."

  6. #816
    Mighty Member Electricmastro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Agreed. One of my favorite Batman stories is "Ten Nights of the Beast." Even though they left it lose enough let Bats off the hook, Batman's last exchange with Bundy made it clear Batman had left The KGBeast to die.

    Of course, that's also a flaw in the story. Given Batman had explicitly characterized The KGBeast as - at the least - his own equal, you'd think Bats would know better to walk off and assume his trap would do the job.
    Yep, regardless of whatever code Batman has, I think that not even codes are guaranteed to be safe from exceptions.

    Not to mention cases such as in The Brave and the Bold #84 (1969), in which Batman helps kill a bunch of Nazis.


  7. #817
    Astonishing Member mathew101281's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by phantom1592 View Post
    What do you mean 'internal logic'? Fromper mentioned '89 Joker. Honestly that didn't bother me much at the time... but if they had cut out that scene entirely, the movie would have played the same way. Joker takes over mob. Starts killing everyone with chemistry. Batman solves his riddle... Joker holds city hostage and calls Batman out... Big fight for the life of the city. Adding in 'Oh yeah... he killed my parents' wasn't particularly necessary. It was really about 3 lines of dialogue added to the show. In fact a director cut could have been Joker: "You can't kill me... You MADE me! You dropped me into those chemicals!!" Batman: "I've read your file. You were psychotic long before you ever met me." Plot would have played out the same.

    For that matter Heath Ledger's Joker didn't have a personal connection... .Nor did Penguin... Sometimes I think 'I want to do something.... and XXXX is constantly stopping me from doing XXXXX' is plenty of reason for people to fight.
    By Internal logic I mean complimentary themes. Batman villains have themes that making them clash with Batman in interesting ways. Batman fighting a Green Arrow villain for a story might be brief change of pace, but I don’t like the fact that so many heroes
    Lack interesting villains tailored to them. Most villains these days are just lumped into a general grab bag, and don’t really have any deep connection to a particular hero. Human interactions are what make stories interesting.

  8. #818
    Superfan Through The Ages BBally's Avatar
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    Superman Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow is one of the most overrated Superman stories ever written.

    Crisis On Infinite Earths ended up hurting the DCU in the long run.
    No matter how many reboots, new origins, reinterpretations or suit redesigns. In the end, he will always be SUPERMAN

    Credit for avatar goes to zclark

  9. #819

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I conceptually don't like an outsider Aquaman (never seen a version where he was raised there) ruling Atlantis.

    I don't like the later versions
    that had Thanagar, Atlantis, Krypton and Themyscira as racist societies and wind up them or their remnants invading the ordinary civilizations of Earth.

    Bruce and Ollie were both better characters before being becoming absolute jerks in the post-COIE era.

    Good family members turning bad (sometimes outright evil, sometimes just jerkish) irritates me. We had Wally's parents post-COIE. Alura during the latter post-COIE time. Jor-El and Zor-El currently. The changeup from Ira West to abusive William West. Sardath. Catherine Todd and Crystal Brown weren't the best mothers originally, to say the least, but definitely took a turn for the worse in New 52.

    I don't like every hero to have a villain with personal connections. A lot of people find the more personal connection more dramatic. I did too - the first couple times I saw it. But now, it’s like every hero has to have a villain that was their sibling/friend/lover/mentor/student/etc. or either killed their parents or otherwise inflicted great trauma on them in childhood and it’s just ridiculous. It's even more irritating when it's a retcon, because I saw how they met, how their enmity developed and now it's all replaced by something else, mostly to further the angst.
    I always thought the Justice League cartoon's take on Aquaman grew up in Atlantis. An outsider Aquaman could work but maybe not as a ruler, more of a folk hero.

  10. #820
    Mighty Member Tzigone's Avatar
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    I always thought the Justice League cartoon's take on Aquaman grew up in Atlantis. An outsider Aquaman could work but maybe not as a ruler, more of a folk hero.
    I did not know that. I did watch the cartoon. I quit not long after it became JLU. I don't remember that detail, but I haven't seen it since the original airings, so that means nothing. Seriously, the only think I remember about Aquaman there is him saving his son and John just not getting it when he cut off his hand and me thinking how wrong-headed he was given what we know happened (though now I can't remember if John knew). Thanks for the info.

  11. #821
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tzigone View Post
    I did not know that. I did watch the cartoon. I quit not long after it became JLU. I don't remember that detail, but I haven't seen it since the original airings, so that means nothing. Seriously, the only think I remember about Aquaman there is him saving his son and John just not getting it when he cut off his hand and me thinking how wrong-headed he was given what we know happened (though now I can't remember if John knew). Thanks for the info.
    I don't think The Timm-verse toon ever specified what Aquaman's origins were, but they certainly did nothing to suggest any surface world attachments. If I remember right, his first Timm-verse appearance was the last season of STAS, and they didn't take the question on there either.

  12. #822

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    Quote Originally Posted by BBally View Post
    Superman Whatever Happened To The Man of Tomorrow is one of the most overrated Superman stories ever written.

    Crisis On Infinite Earths ended up hurting the DCU in the long run.
    Are these opinions controversial? They seem right on to me.
    Sandy Hausler
    DC Boards Moderator (along with those two other guys)
    THE CBR COMMUNITY STANDARDS & RULES ~ Know them. Follow them. Love them.

  13. #823
    Spectacular Member Fromper's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sandy Hausler View Post
    Are these opinions controversial? They seem right on to me.
    I already mentioned earlier that I thought that opinion about Crisis was the general consensus, not controversial at all.
    Just re-reading my old collection, filling in the occasional gap with back issues, not buying anything new.

    Currently working my way through 1990's Flash, Impulse, and JLA, and occasional other related stuff.

  14. #824
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    DC's track record with Asian women and Asian mothers is abysmal. They're either dead or villains. Far too many of them fall into the Dragon Lady or exotic foreigner stereotype too.

  15. #825
    Incredible Member Blue22's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    DC's track record with Asian women and Asian mothers is abysmal. They're either dead or villains. Far too many of them fall into the Dragon Lady or exotic foreigner stereotype too.
    Speaking of...

    My controversial opinion:

    Bruce and Talia was more interesting than Bruce and Selina, and I would have loved to see them end up together...That is before she became a psycho date rapist who put a hit out on her own child (over a lost custody battle) and then gets upset when he dies. Man...Talia has been...not very great in recent years.

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