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  1. #946
    Mighty Member Kaijudo's Avatar
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    Another thing to remember about Cyborg is that Johns is the age where his first exposure to Cyborg may have been his appearance on the Superfriends cartoon, where he was already viewed as being a (albeit new) contemporary of that cast. So it's possible that making Cyborg a founder just felt "right" because he was originally seen standing side-by-side with Superman, Batman, etc.

    Personally, I'd be good with saying the original 7 members were the actual original 7 (Trinity, Hal, Barry, Arthur, and J'onn) and then just letting that go, rather than using it as a crutch that any other incarnation of the league has to be set around. But if they had to tweak history and bring in a new founder, I agree with Black Lightning (love Vixen, but also like her coming in as part of the Detroit era). Yes, Isabella can be a pain, but DC has given him repeated opportunities to write the character "correctly" over the years, only to have bland stories that nobody cares about as the results. I'm sorry he feels that he got a raw deal, and maybe he did, but if he spent as much time focusing on writing as he does complaining about how others handle the character, maybe he'd be able to produce something that people actually want to read.

  2. #947
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    Hawkman is the "main protagonist" but that's mainly due to the times they were created in. they were created as a pair...
    Not quite. Yes, Shiera Saunders was created in the same tale as Carter Hall, and yes, she was also a reincarnation of a Middle-Eastern aristocrat. However, she didn't get a set of wings for over a year. As created, her role was far closer to that of The Flash's Joan Williams: exposition target, rescue recipient, and occasionally helpful agent.

    None of that is to run her down. Up until Crisis, whether we're talking Shiera or Shayera, Hawkgirl/woman was generally treated with more respect than any other Super-WAGs I can recall in any comic from any publisher. It's one of the reasons that I hated DC splitting the two up; stable, loving relationships between equals are really rare in superhero comics.

  3. #948
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kaijudo View Post
    Another thing to remember about Cyborg is that Johns is the age where his first exposure to Cyborg may have been his appearance on the Superfriends cartoon, where he was already viewed as being a (albeit new) contemporary of that cast. So it's possible that making Cyborg a founder just felt "right" because he was originally seen standing side-by-side with Superman, Batman, etc.

    Personally, I'd be good with saying the original 7 members were the actual original 7 (Trinity, Hal, Barry, Arthur, and J'onn) and then just letting that go, rather than using it as a crutch that any other incarnation of the league has to be set around. But if they had to tweak history and bring in a new founder, I agree with Black Lightning (love Vixen, but also like her coming in as part of the Detroit era). Yes, Isabella can be a pain, but DC has given him repeated opportunities to write the character "correctly" over the years, only to have bland stories that nobody cares about as the results. I'm sorry he feels that he got a raw deal, and maybe he did, but if he spent as much time focusing on writing as he does complaining about how others handle the character, maybe he'd be able to produce something that people actually want to read.
    sheesh, spicy talk for Isabella but I can't say I disagree
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  4. #949
    Boisterously Confused
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think Vic's story can be very empowering, in the same way that Barbara Gordon's story as Oracle was empowering. They were crippled but didn't let it ruin or stop them (granted Vic had a long struggle making peace with himself, but he stepped up nonetheless) and they made their situations work for them. I've seen a lot of people talk about how those characters meant a lot and inspired them to keep going after accidents of their own. Just depends on how you look at it......and how DC spins it, too I suppose...
    I don't see those as the same. Oracle was about a disabled woman refusing to stay down, even though it meant having to use her other abilities to carry on the fight in a different way. Cyborg was about coping with loss too, but it lost something from being a creation of his father's, and later a recipient of New Gods tech. He had to be given something by higher powers.

  5. #950
    Uncanny King-Kamalu lemonpeace's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Not quite. Yes, Shiera Saunders was created in the same tale as Carter Hall, and yes, she was also a reincarnation of a Middle-Eastern aristocrat. However, she didn't get a set of wings for over a year. As created, her role was far closer to that of The Flash's Joan Williams: exposition target, rescue recipient, and occasionally helpful agent.

    None of that is to run her down. Up until Crisis, whether we're talking Shiera or Shayera, Hawkgirl/woman was generally treated with more respect than any other Super-WAGs I can recall in any comic from any publisher. It's one of the reasons that I hated DC splitting the two up; stable, loving relationships between equals are really rare in superhero comics.
    I didn't know that but I believe that adds to my argument, Carter got the shine and superheroics because that was the climate of the time.

    I grew up only knowing Hawkgirl because I didn't read comics as a kid, I watched the show, so I don't really see the need for her and Hawkman to be together outside their origin. I prefer the concept of a female character making her name despite her male counterpart. that's my biggest gripe with the Hawkman/Hawkgirl relationship, and maybe it's because I don't read all things Hawks but, it tends to feel like the destiny part of it takes more agency from Hawkgirl than Hawkman. If they need them to be together, I prefer them being together not because he's the boy one, she's the girl one, and they HAVE to be together; rather, they are together in spite of their reincarnation cycle, not because of destiny. when they are allowed to be their own characters it widens their slice of the DC pie with different characters and relationships.

    but I'm getting too lost in the weeds with this Hawkgirl rationalizing, my point is her as a founder would've been a viable option.
    Last edited by lemonpeace; 08-18-2019 at 10:36 AM.
    SIGNAL/Duke Thomas is the Midnight Sun of Gotham (respect thread)
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  6. #951
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    I didn't know that but I believe that adds to my argument, Carter got the shine and superheroics because that was the climate of the time.

    I grew up only knowing Hawkgirl because I didn't read comics as a kid, I watched the show, so I don't really see the need for her and Hawkman to be together outside their origin. I prefer the concept of a female character making her name despite her male counterpart. that's my biggest gripe with the Hawkman/Hawkgirl relationship, and maybe it's because I don't read all things Hawks but, it tends to feel like the destiny part of it takes more agency from Hawkgirl than Hawkman. If they need them to be together, I prefer them being together not because he's the boy one, she's the girl one, and they HAVE to be together; rather, they are together in spite of their reincarnation cycle, not because of destiny. when they are allowed to be their own characters it widens their slice of the DC pie with different characters and relationships.

    but I'm getting too lost in the weeds with this Hawkgirl rationalizing, my point is her as a founder would've been a viable option.
    Not to trap you in the weeds longer, but I agree with you about the reincarnation thing. It's part of the reason that I've always preferred Katar and Shayera over Carter and Shiera. Aside from the agency thing you mention, Shayera was almost always depicted as every bit as competent as her husband, with just as many good ideas, and just as much ability crack skulls. IMO, my favorite was the last run on The Hawks prior to the Hawkworld reboot. They really let Hawkwoman shine in that one.

  7. #952
    Mighty Member 90'sCartoonMan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I dunno about anyone else, but what I really love about Dick Grayson (one of the things anyway) is that he's generally this happy, well-adjusted guy living in the moral and emotional quagmire that is Gotham and the Batcave. That's a weird, interesting dynamic to explore. He's a Bat with the heart and soul of a Super. The best of both worlds, so to speak.
    I also love the fact that he's probably the best leader of any team. Batman is smart and can strategize, but he is often short with others and doesn't always communicate well. Dick, as either Robin or Nightwing, has shown he understands the strengths and skills of his teammates well and has built up a good enough rapport with them that they trust him to follow his lead.

  8. #953
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Here's a controversial opinion. We shouldn't have to pick between John Stewart and Victor Stone. They are not interchangeable and having two black guys as founders won't bring the world to an end.
    Here's a controversial opinion: doing a Green Lantern movie with John Stewart as the lead isn't automatically going to be equivalent to Black Panther or reach people the same way that movie did unless you really lean into different aspects of the mythos.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aahz View Post
    Kendra as a Founder feels wired to me for two reasons.
    1. It doesn't really makes much sense for me to have her as Founder without Hawkman. He is the main protagonist of the "Hawkfranchise", so it should either be him or both of them together.
    2. She is not the first Hawkgirl, that is Shiera.

    I have not problem of her becoming a member later on without Hawkman on the team, but I don't see how this would make sense that early in continuity that she could be a founder.
    Making Kendra a founder just strikes me as trying to conflate her with Shayera again since she was a founder in the DCAU.
    Quote Originally Posted by Agent Z View Post
    Personally I'd ditch the reincarnation thing for the Hawks and just have Kendra be Shayera's daughter via a human she fell in love with.
    That would make a weird dynamic with Carter.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I don't think the problem was Vic, but the way writers have folded him (or rather, failed to) into the League's dynamic. And I'm not sure if it would have gone any better with Jeff or Vixen. Jeff especially has/had a number of real-world factors in the mix with Isabella (which may be what prevented him from being the new guy in New52) that likely would've caused problems. The problem isn't Vic and never has been, the problem is how DC has handled him in the League. Write him differently, do a better job making him feel like a real Leaguer, and the problem is solved. Gods know we've had far worse heroes on that roster over the years.
    I mean, I'm not saying you can't make Cyborg this strong, independent, character and unique entity deserving of League membership but I feel like Jefferson and Vixen lend themselves to that more readily then he did.
    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    If they could skip Shiera on the Justice League and Justice League Unlimited and no one bats an eye when they went to Shayera (voiced by a Latina actress), they can do it again Kendra. Speaking of which, JL/JLU also proved that Hawkgirl doesn't necessarily need to be attached at the hip to Hawkman almost 2 decades ago. So he could appear later down the line like he did in the show and like people, arbitrarily, would've been expected her to. better yet, have Hawkman be revealed to be a member of the Justice Society nd have Hawkgirl be a League founder.
    Yeah, but as much as I love that show they also kind of dropped the ball with how they handled Hawkman.

    I mean, I kind of don't blame him because there wasn't really much they could do with him within the framework they already had with the show up to that point, but still.

    I'd like the Hawks to both have dual League/JSA membership. They have deep histories with both teams.

  9. #954
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    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    If they could skip Shiera on the Justice League and Justice League Unlimited and no one bats an eye when they went to Shayera (voiced by a Latina actress), they can do it again Kendra. Speaking of which, JL/JLU also proved that Hawkgirl doesn't necessarily need to be attached at the hip to Hawkman almost 2 decades ago. So he could appear later down the line like he did in the show and like people, arbitrarily, would've been expected her to.
    Imo what workes for the cartoons does not really necessary work for the comics.
    In the comics you have way more long term fans and DC maybe wants to do Hawkman book along side a JL series, and therefore it might not be the best idea to completely retcon Hawkman and diminish his role for the sake of Hawkgirl (ok that franchise is anyway infamous for continuity snarl) just for little bit more diversity among the JL founders.
    Ad retconning her into a JL founder will anyway not achieve much like we have seen with Cyborg. It will neither turn her into an Iconic member of the JL nor increase her popularity to the level of the Big 6.

    That's why I think it makes in general not much sense to change who the founders are, the characters are iconic and this iconic status will not magically transfer to a character that is made a founder by a retcon.
    If you want to add more diversity to the league change the current line up, and not founding members.
    Last edited by Aahz; 08-18-2019 at 12:30 PM.

  10. #955
    Moderator Frontier's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by DrNewGod View Post
    Not to trap you in the weeds longer, but I agree with you about the reincarnation thing. It's part of the reason that I've always preferred Katar and Shayera over Carter and Shiera. Aside from the agency thing you mention, Shayera was almost always depicted as every bit as competent as her husband, with just as many good ideas, and just as much ability crack skulls. IMO, my favorite was the last run on The Hawks prior to the Hawkworld reboot. They really let Hawkwoman shine in that one.
    I've never really felt like the reincarnation angle prevented Kendra from being every bit Carter's equal, at least in what I've read.

  11. #956
    A Wearied Madness Vakanai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    you have no soul!!

    I dunno about anyone else, but what I really love about Dick Grayson (one of the things anyway) is that he's generally this happy, well-adjusted guy living in the moral and emotional quagmire that is Gotham and the Batcave. That's a weird, interesting dynamic to explore. He's a Bat with the heart and soul of a Super. The best of both worlds, so to speak.
    Eh, we got well adjusted heroes who are also more inspiring or interesting. When I want Superman I read Superman, when I want Batman I read Batman, and when I want the best of both I read their team ups. Dick just feels like this uninteresting, vanilla guy who just feels very, very meh to me. I just have nothing to grab onto with the guy, he's so ordinary and normal and just...plain. Like he's just kind of there to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by lemonpeace View Post
    i. Feel. You.
    Thanks, glad to be not completely alone there.

  12. #957
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    I mean, I'm not saying you can't make Cyborg this strong, independent, character and unique entity deserving of League membership but I feel like Jefferson and Vixen lend themselves to that more readily then he did. .
    Jeff definitely would have, but I suspect the whole Isabella thing killed that idea before it even got off the ground. And Vixen....yeah, maybe? I'm not as familiar with her as I am Vic, but to my knowledge she didn't have as many larger media appearances nor as much panel time through the decades.

    I think all three are very much deserving of League membership and bring a lot to the table, don't get me wrong. But I can see why Vic won out in the end. Odds are we're digging into all this more than DC did too; it might very well just have been a matter of Johns saying he likes Vic and using him on that basis alone. Johns has said he's a big fan of Cyborg, and looking at his Teen Titans and Flashpoint I believe it. I just wonder what happened once Johns started JL, because Vic did not get great treatment from somebody who claims to love him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Vakanai View Post
    Eh, we got well adjusted heroes who are also more inspiring or interesting. When I want Superman I read Superman, when I want Batman I read Batman, and when I want the best of both I read their team ups. Dick just feels like this uninteresting, vanilla guy who just feels very, very meh to me. I just have nothing to grab onto with the guy, he's so ordinary and normal and just...plain. Like he's just kind of there to me.
    You don't gotta justify your opinion to me man, you got nothing to prove even if you don't like Nightwing.

    You uncultured philistine!
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  13. #958
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frontier View Post
    Here's a controversial opinion: doing a Green Lantern movie with John Stewart as the lead isn't automatically going to be equivalent to Black Panther or reach people the same way that movie did unless you really lean into different aspects of the mythos.

    I think it depends on what you mean by equivalent. In terms of financial success, given the state of the DCEU's brand in comparison to Marvel's, yeah a John Stewart film probably wouldn't do as well as Black Panther. If we're talking about how it resonates, then I think it's more murky. Black Panther did as well as it did with black audiences (evidenced in the proportion of domestic ticket sales) because it featured commentary on the black diaspora and its relation to the African continent. It raised issues of heritage and belonging which definitely produced a paradigm shift in black pop culture and intellectual discourse. Funny thing is it didn't even have to do that because there are plenty of Black Panther stories that have next to nothing to do with race. But the character lends itself pretty naturally to those types of stories because his entire mythos is a subversion of white supremacy, colonialism, and other related topics.

    The Green Lantern franchise would have a hard time telling a story similarly geared toward racial politics, but that's only a problem insofar as DC thinks that's necessary to make a great black superhero film. I'd have a problem if they were basing which black hero gets a movie on who can tell the "blackest" story rather than who can be used to tell the better story. Especially since casuals and fans (especially the "blerd" community) have been appreciating John even when he didn't have a narrative tied to his ethnicity. What worked for Black Panther doesn't necessarily need to be applied to DC's black heroes, especially when on a conceptual level a black-led space opera can make as many headlines as a black-led kingdom.

    DC certainly could lean into different aspects of the GL mythos, using aliens as an allegory for race and things of that nature, but I don't think that's essential for making a John Stewart film that resonates with black fans or fans in general. In many ways his presence alone means something and what really matters is the quality of the story he's attached to.
    Last edited by chief12d; 08-18-2019 at 01:28 PM.

  14. #959
    Ultimate Member Ascended's Avatar
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    I actually think it might be in DC's best interests to avoid any kind of racial undertones with a John Stewart film.

    Black Panther already tackled some of these issues and did it beautifully. John could do the same, using aliens as allegory and everything, just like you said (I'd suggest Mosaic for inspiration) but even if a John GL film did that well.....we've seen it already with Wakanda. I think BP and Wonder Woman were huge moments for pop culture and, if I can be pretentious, society. But those moments happened and no one will be done any favors by WB/DC trying to recapture that lightning in a bottle.

    So I'd like to see a John movie that doesn't delve into racial social issues or politics.....but was just a fun, badass movie with a fun, badass character who happens to be a black man. I think a movie featuring a PoC that doesn't deal with race would be as novel now as BP and Wonder Woman were for having PoC and female leads and tackling some of the issues they deal with.

    Of course, John *could* tackle these issues and do it well and we'd all enjoy it. But I don't think it *has* to be done. Just because your lead is a PoC or woman doesn't mean it has to be a commentary, it can just be a great story.
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  15. #960
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ascended View Post
    I think all three are very much deserving of League membership and bring a lot to the table, don't get me wrong.
    Honestly I don't think there are very few characters that are either iconic or powerful enough that you could add them to the Big 6 Justice League, without that they feel out of place and non of the three is one of those characters.
    I mean they even gave Cyborg a massive power up with the New 52 by giving him a mother box to somehow make him work.

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