Your DC-Only controversial opinions (part II)...

[SiegePerilous02]

The flashback being from Booth's perspective should indicate that his view of Lee doesn't necessarily reflect reality.

People are never going to let that fight in Supergirl go are they? You know, for a guy who is supposed to be all about humility and inspiring others to be the best they can be it's amazing how much the Superman fandom dislikes the idea of someone surpassing or equaling him.

That's not all Superman is about. those who push that belief generally want him out of the way so other heroes can get the spotlight, to put him on a pedestal so we don't have to engage with him and so he can inspire others to be better than him. A lot of Superman fans are sick to death of his passive inspiration and humility getting too much focus. Sorry, but screw that noise. They don't have to be happy with anyone equaling him or surpassing him in specific ways that he started. Why is that necessary to begin with?

The show is not subtle about its messages. One of its episodes is called "Nevertheless, she Persisted" which tells us all we need to know. Clark not caring that Kara beat him under those circumstances is not OOC at all, nor should he be the hero in her show. But the only reason that scenario is cooked up and those words placed in his mouth is because the writers want to prop up Kara in comparison to him. And considering the timing the episode came out, of course Superman fans are annoyed with it. Some reactions are overblown, but the basic criticism isn't invalid. If the only times Superman's power is respected is when he goes evil in video games, becomes a zombie so he can slaughter Wonder Woman, or briefly go out of control in JL (where everyone was talking more about Cavill's CG lips), what exactly is there to get excited about? Nobody was asking for any of those.

[Agent Z]

That's not all Superman is about. those who push that belief generally want him out of the way so other heroes can get the spotlight, to put him on a pedestal so we don't have to engage with him and so he can inspire others to be better than him. A lot of Superman fans are sick to death of his passive inspiration and humility getting too much focus. Sorry, but screw that noise. They don't have to be happy with anyone equaling him or surpassing him in specific ways that he started. Why is that necessary to begin with?

Well it certainly was what a lot of Superman fans believed he was about when the New 52 and Man of Steel came out.

The first Injustice game has the evil Superman beaten by the good version while the JL movie has him curb stomping Steppenwolf after the entire team failed to put a dent in him. Him being evil is not the only time his power level is respected.

[SiegePerilous02]

Well it certainly was what a lot of Superman fans believed he was about when the New 52 and Man of Steel came out.

What do you mean by this? Because new 52 Superman is the most powerful hero, but while Morrison was writing him at least, the core ideas that went into the character were on display and he was actually engaging and fun. Some fans rejected it because they have a certain view of the character and evidently don't have much knowledge or liking for wider aspects of his history. Fans of that take usually DON'T want him to just be about humility and inspiring others (which he had and did do), they want the whole package. Those who don't seem to want him nice and normal, and humble and not too powerful because they are more concerned with other characters.

Not sure about MOS. it was different, and enough time has passed where we can deem it an overall failed experiment. it had promise that was never realized in subsequent movies and had dicey creative decisions from the get go.

The first Injustice game has the evil Superman beaten by the good version while the JL movie has him curb stomping Steppenwolf after the entire team failed to put a dent in him. Him being evil is not the only time his power level is respected.

Firs Injustice game had good Superman as a bone that was thrown. He was there for contrast, but the main takeaway was Superman being evil which carried into other games and the fact that the good one didn't have a dead Lois.

Him showing off in JL was pretty moot since that movie was a shitshow before he even appeared on screen. Audiences liked him in that, but not enough to save the movie. So yeah there is that, stacked against Injustice, Supergirl, BvS to a degree, the early JL seasons, and now this DCeased stuff. Because yeah he's all powerful there, but were Superman fans clamoring for him to be a zombit that brutalized a woman? They still have a leg to stand on if they want to complain, because that's how fandoms work. They are chiefly concerned with the character they are a fan of.

[Robanker]

I sincerely want to see batman just get his POUNDED by Zod in under 2 seconds. All those plans... all those contingencies that show he's a real threat to Superman... only ever work because Superman honestly doesn't WANT to hurt him. Put him against a full evil raging Kryptonian?? Yeah, let's see what Bruce has.

One of my favorite issues where Max Lord made him think Batman was Mongul or Brainiac and he just cuts loose... and the next scene shows batman in intensive care at the watchtower.

See, while I get the catharsis of that, I'd also secretly love for his contingency to work on Zod, who will find himself beset with confusion as to how. Right before he puts him down, Bruce reveals the rub: Clark's the one who gave the plans to him.

I like the idea that Clark was the one who came to Bruce with the idea "if I made it put, what if someone else did? What if they want to hurt people? We should be ready." He's the one who helps Bruce learn Kryptonian limits. Perhaps from there, Bruce developed plans for the rest, but Clark's the one who taught him exactly how to bring down a Kryptonian (which is admittedly still a reach, but perhaps there's a couple ways it can be done and they hash it out together). Ultimately, a Kryptonian can just fly into an asteroid belt and chuck the whole thing at Earth like a fastball machine. That'd probably be it if we're being honest, but if we must have crazy-prepared Batman, I think that's a fair compromise. I think it'd be fun seeing the World's Finest in the lab trying to solve a doomsday scenario before it even happens just in case they need it, Clark realizing it could be used against him and Bruce learning just how powerless he may be if Clark went bad, but both just trusting each other completely and not letting their egos get in the way.

Because they're friends. That's always more fun to read about.

[Raijin]

I think Zod would look bad if he lost to Batman that way.

[Tzigone]

See, while I get the catharsis of that, I'd also secretly love for his contingency to work on Zod, who will find himself beset with confusion as to how. Right before he puts him down, Bruce reveals the rub: Clark's the one who gave the plans to him.

I like the idea that Clark was the one who came to Bruce with the idea "if I made it put, what if someone else did? What if they want to hurt people? We should be ready." He's the one who helps Bruce learn Kryptonian limits. Perhaps from there, Bruce developed plans for the rest, but Clark's the one who taught him exactly how to bring down a Kryptonian (which is admittedly still a reach, but perhaps there's a couple ways it can be done and they hash it out together). Ultimately, a Kryptonian can just fly into an asteroid belt and chuck the whole thing at Earth like a fastball machine. That'd probably be it if we're being honest, but if we must have crazy-prepared Batman, I think that's a fair compromise. I think it'd be fun seeing the World's Finest in the lab trying to solve a doomsday scenario before it even happens just in case they need it, Clark realizing it could be used against him and Bruce learning just how powerless he may be if Clark went bad, but both just trusting each other completely and not letting their egos get in the way.

Because they're friends. That's always more fun to read about.

I like phantom's version better. Because it involves Batman losing, which he should. And a win handed to him by Clark is still Bruce's win (you even had him come up with the plans). If Clark's knowledge is going to win it, make Clark win it, not Bruce. I am so very sick of "Batman can't lose" even when everyone else can. Particularly in the context of the other Leaguers losing and him winning.

[Ascended]

See, while I get the catharsis of that, I'd also secretly love for his contingency to work on Zod, who will find himself beset with confusion as to how. Right before he puts him down, Bruce reveals the rub: Clark's the one who gave the plans to him.

I like the idea that Clark was the one who came to Bruce with the idea "if I made it put, what if someone else did? What if they want to hurt people? We should be ready." He's the one who helps Bruce learn Kryptonian limits. Perhaps from there, Bruce developed plans for the rest, but Clark's the one who taught him exactly how to bring down a Kryptonian (which is admittedly still a reach, but perhaps there's a couple ways it can be done and they hash it out together). Ultimately, a Kryptonian can just fly into an asteroid belt and chuck the whole thing at Earth like a fastball machine. That'd probably be it if we're being honest, but if we must have crazy-prepared Batman, I think that's a fair compromise. I think it'd be fun seeing the World's Finest in the lab trying to solve a doomsday scenario before it even happens just in case they need it, Clark realizing it could be used against him and Bruce learning just how powerless he may be if Clark went bad, but both just trusting each other completely and not letting their egos get in the way.

Because they're friends. That's always more fun to read about.

In a vacuum, just as an expression of the trust between Clark and Bruce, the idea is fine. Clark handing the plan to Bruce and Bruce executing it is a fine way to highlight their different methodologies and their trust in one another.

But with everything else taken into consideration and the specter of the Batgod that looms over DC? No, I'll happily take a broken Bat and Zod looking down at him and saying "I thought this guy was a big deal?" before Clark shows up to settle things.

[phantom1592]

But with everything else taken into consideration and the specter of the Batgod that looms over DC? No, I'll happily take a broken Bat and Zod looking down at him and saying "I thought this guy was a big deal?" before Clark shows up to settle things.

Which is kind of my point. The whole Bat-God thing started with Dark Knight Returns... the idea that with time and money and planning... Batman could beat superman to death with his bare hands. And the actual story itself was taken WAY out of perspective. The first time I read that I couldn't believe how others took this as proof of how Awesome batman was.

The entire dialogue was to the effect of "Clark is probably trying to talk away this fight... but I can't hear him." followed by Clark practically begging Bruce to stand down because he can hear that his heart is giving out. That's not a fight... That's beating on someone who doesn't want to fight and is trying to be your friend.

Now, I'm not going to say that Superman can't be beaten... or that Kryptonians are too powerful to be stopped... I'm just saying that BATMAN can't do it. You can't beat ALLLLL the powers with zero powers. Brains and money can't do it... even kryptonite weapons can't do it... Just as Luthor after EIGHTY YEARS. My analogy is if Batman decided to fight Spider-man and with all his planning came to the conclusion that 4 mechanical tentacles are way to go! sigh...

Martian Manhunter, Green Lantern (specifically Hal), Zatanna, Dr. Fate.... Spectre… Maybe Flash... There's a lot of characters that can beat him down even if *gasp* he doesn't WANT to be beat down... But the 'peak human genius' isn't the one to do it. His tools just aren't up to the job. His main arch-enemy is a clown and he can't even beat HIM for long...

And I would love to see that shown off a lot more. It's really one of my favorite scenes in Justice League.

[Robanker]

In a vacuum, just as an expression of the trust between Clark and Bruce, the idea is fine. Clark handing the plan to Bruce and Bruce executing it is a fine way to highlight their different methodologies and their trust in one another.

But with everything else taken into consideration and the specter of the Batgod that looms over DC? No, I'll happily take a broken Bat and Zod looking down at him and saying "I thought this guy was a big deal?" before Clark shows up to settle things.

I get it, but frankly I'm tired of the endless seesaw of Batman and Superman fans trying to have their hero one-up the other guy. I'd rather just read stories about them being chums. We got what you entailed in Dark Multiverse Death of Superman recently, where Lois essentially said "he let you think you stood a chance" and in King's Up in the Sky with Clark admitting Bruce would win because it's important to him and Clark doesn't much care, so he lets it happen so his bud can be happy. Both are essentially admitting Clark should win but ultimately it's not a concern (much as an adult losing to a child in a game of strategy, nothing was ever really on the line), but I don't know, it didn't do that much for me? As I get older, the fights just mean less and less to me I suppose.

Which is kind of my point. The whole Bat-God thing started with Dark Knight Returns... the idea that with time and money and planning... Batman could beat superman to death with his bare hands. And the actual story itself was taken WAY out of perspective. The first time I read that I couldn't believe how others took this as proof of how Awesome batman was.

The entire dialogue was to the effect of "Clark is probably trying to talk away this fight... but I can't hear him." followed by Clark practically begging Bruce to stand down because he can hear that his heart is giving out. That's not a fight... That's beating on someone who doesn't want to fight and is trying to be your friend.

I have long held that TDKR's big fight is an (admittedly misguided) adult trying to calm down a rampaging child and letting the latter work out his frustrations. Batgod fans love that fight and discount that Bruce needed Carrie in a tank, Ollie firing a green K arrow and Clark to essentially just let it all happen because he just wanted to talk it out once Bruce was done. It's not a fight, it's three pages of "alright, are you done yet?" It's actually really funny. Bruce is there saying to Clark "a little change in the compound and you'd be dead, I wanted you to live knowing I won" and he's forgetting that to deliver a message, Clark used his heat vision from the sky and left a message at his feet. Could have just microwaved your skull, Bruce. Let's not play "could have" because neither Clark or Bruce have all day. He seriously is telling this guy "I could have done this any way I wanted" while forgetting he's holding a man who just ate a nuclear blast for lunch. He's so comically self-serious and has zero self-awareness in that fight that I cannot take him seriously. And yet, it's the Old Testament to Watchmen's New for most fans. It's a shame, really.

I kind of hate the latter half of that book because while the first half is wonderful, it quickly becomes an overindulgent mess that informs the tropes Miller would destroy his writing talent with in the years to come. TDKR is really heartbreaking in that respect, because with some restraint, his work on Daredevil and Batman: Year One show Frank really could have been one of the greats instead of someone who peaked really early and has coasted on his laurels ever since.

[phantom1592]

I get it, but frankly I'm tired of the endless seesaw of Batman and Superman fans trying to have their hero one-up the other guy. I'd rather just read stories about them being chums.

And that's even BETTER.

There are a few comic meta-tropes that I'm just sick of. 1)The Heroes secretly (or openly) hate each other. It's perfectly okay for the heroes to be good friends. I still think Hal and Ollie were my favorite comic buddies. They could get spitting mad at each other and occassionaly knock each other on their butts... and then have a BBQ while discussing their girl troubles. That's a 'realistic' friendship and we saw a lot of that kind of thing back in the satellite era. Now days? Not so much. 2) Characters being ashamed of their name/costume/etc. Superman does not have to explain his trunks... he loves his costume. He's not ashamed to wear it. Same with Dick Grayson. He was not forced to wear the shorts and pixie boots until he was old enough to demand pants... that was his uniform. He was proud of it regardless of what modern readers think... in character they don't have to justify it.

I kind of hate the latter half of that book because while the first half is wonderful, it quickly becomes an overindulgent mess that informs the tropes Miller would destroy his writing talent with in the years to come. TDKR is really heartbreaking in that respect, because with some restraint, his work on Daredevil and Batman: Year One show Frank really could have been one of the greats instead of someone who peaked really early and has coasted on his laurels ever since.

YES!!! Exactly! Everytime someone talks about how wonderful TDKR is... my reaction has always been 'yeah... the first half'. The whole coming out of retirement and going after two-face and staring down the cops... I could read that all the time. it was great! The mutants and parlayzing Joker and Superman fight.... just get stupid. but yeah, I love the first half. There's just some shark-jumping that comes later. There really isn't any other book I can think of that I find so opposite polarizing in only 4 issues.... it really hits both extremes for me.

[Agent Z]

What do you mean by this? Because new 52 Superman is the most powerful hero, but while Morrison was writing him at least, the core ideas that went into the character were on display and he was actually engaging and fun. Some fans rejected it because they have a certain view of the character and evidently don't have much knowledge or liking for wider aspects of his history. Fans of that take usually DON'T want him to just be about humility and inspiring others (which he had and did do), they want the whole package. Those who don't seem to want him nice and normal, and humble and not too powerful because they are more concerned with other characters.

Not sure about MOS. it was different, and enough time has passed where we can deem it an overall failed experiment. it had promise that was never realized in subsequent movies and had dicey creative decisions from the get go.

Both MoS and Morrison Superman were met with accusations of lacking in compassion, humility and kindness by Superman fans is what I was getting at. Both were depicted as extremely powerful but that didn't stop people from complaining about their attitude.

Firs Injustice game had good Superman as a bone that was thrown. He was there for contrast, but the main takeaway was Superman being evil which carried into other games and the fact that the good one didn't have a dead Lois.

Him showing off in JL was pretty moot since that movie was a shitshow before he even appeared on screen. Audiences liked him in that, but not enough to save the movie. So yeah there is that, stacked against Injustice, Supergirl, BvS to a degree, the early JL seasons, and now this DCeased stuff. Because yeah he's all powerful there, but were Superman fans clamoring for him to be a zombit that brutalized a woman? They still have a leg to stand on if they want to complain, because that's how fandoms work. They are chiefly concerned with the character they are a fan of.

The point is that whether he's a good guy or a bad guy there are far more examples of Superman's power level being respected than not.

[Midnight_v]

The Bat-God.


Its a good thing.

But what I don't want is for some "Super" to hand Bats a HARD loss, ala bane back in the 90's.

People will accept various power ups and nerfs for heroes and villains throughout history pretty easily but seem to have a real problem with bats being as powerful
as the story needs him to be.

Unlimited Human Potential. Thats his power. Humanity without limits.
The Sherlock Holmes, Steven Hawking, and the Mayan Hero twins applying his power to figuring out how to fight the gods.
Thing about that statement that SHOULD ring out the loudest is tha 2 of the 3 mentioned... they're NOT real.

So batman being viewed as "my next door neighbor worked out and put on a batsuit to fight crime" that idea needs to die out at some point.

I recently encountered this interview of someone asking grant morrison "How old is batman" and He said it: as old as the story needs him to be. He doesn't have an age, he's fictional. People say kids can't tell the difference between
reality and fictions but its really grown ups. No 5 year old is sitting there thinking how is a fat man on a sleigh pulled by reindeer crossing the world instantly overnight. Meanwhile grown ups want to know how old batman is"

For the few... Like "Ascended" who I know have read my posts. I admit I'm a big fan of things needing to make "Narrative sense".

Its a big deal for me. So if you can't twig that Bruce Wayne is more than a mere mortal... In cannon... thus in perpetuity now.

He sat in the Mobius chair. . . He was the literal BatGod for a while. So all those feats you hate. All those moments of "OMG No, way..."

Just know that he used that damn chair to make sure he won a lot of the time when he shouldn't have. To know things he shouldn't have know.

I mean... please keep in mind when you think "a human can't BEAT superman!!!" please keep in mind humans aren't fast enough to dodge bullets either.

Lastly... the majority of people reading a book, lets say most heroic books anyway. Are reading the book to see a favorite characters struggle and win.

Never listen to someone who just WANTS a character to take a hard "L"
... never. There are a lot more people rooting for their favorites (and those are the ones keeping your book afloat) than rooting for someone else's favorite to fail (who typically nowdays want that character out of the way to give their favorite a chance to shine."



Edit: all that being said... I'm not a bat superfan. I'm sure there are people who ARE his fans who only want him in Gotham never out having space adventures. Thats fair too, but the same iconic status that make sure
his books stay in print are the same things that make him solidly a part of "THE TRINITY" and so read the gotham books and cheer for the Batgod fans as well. It only helps Gotham in the long run.

[Tzigone]

Unlimited Human Potential. Thats his power. Humanity without limits.
The Sherlock Holmes, Steven Hawking, and the Mayan Hero twins applying his power to figuring out how to fight the gods.
Thing about that statement that SHOULD ring out the loudest is tha 2 of the 3 mentioned... they're NOT real.

I disagree entirely. While Batman absolutely should not be neighbor in a Halloween costume, he also should not be the peak of human perfection (which he far outstrips in many stories). The world's greatest detective, yes. The world's greatest fighter or the world's greatest scientist or the world's greatest tactician, no. Good at all those things, sure, but not best in world - not even top 20.

Never listen to someone who just WANTS a character to take a hard "L"
... never. There are a lot more people rooting for their favorites (and those are the ones keeping your book afloat) than rooting for someone else's favorite to fail (who typically nowdays want that character out of the way to give their favorite a chance to shine."

I'd agree if I thought Batman's wins all worked. Unfortuantely, they've set him up to win when other heroes lose. Specifically to have other heroes lose to him. Yeah, I'm a bit vindictive, and I want him to have to lose in response. Superman should never set him up for the loss. I want them to be friends and treat each other with mutual respect (something that's way too often lacking from Bruce). But I desperately want the idea of BatGod to die. There are two ways to do this - have him lose when other heroes can win (and the inverse of that has been done, so it's only fair) or to have him actually ask for help and acknowledge others can succeed where he cannot. As long as it's painted where Batman can't lose, but other heroes can - especially against other hero's villains - I'm going to have a problem with it. With Batman constantly "besting" other heroes (his plans taking all of them down, etc.), I'm going to have an even more major problem with it. It explicitly sets him as superior to them (even several of them at once), and that's entirely unacceptable to me. If it went the other way as often, it'd be different (though still annoying they are against each other), but it's been almost entirely a one-side affair. The treatment that the JL would be better made up of a bunch of Amazos and Batman instructing them than the heroes we have. That he's the brains and worth more than all of them combined.

[SiegePerilous02]

Both MoS and Morrison Superman were met with accusations of lacking in compassion, humility and kindness by Superman fans is what I was getting at. Both were depicted as extremely powerful but that didn't stop people from complaining about their attitude.

That really just goes to show that they are annoyed with the whole package not always being represented. Either he is depicted as just a powerhouse without any of his personality or he's just blandly kind and humble but not especially noteworthy among superheroes in terms of power. Or both at once.

And I maintain that anyone who says Morrison's Superman lacked compassion, humility and kindness just had a kneejerk reaction to the marketing and the first issue because he had all three, or just didn't read very carefully. Grant just reminded us he has more personality traits and dimensions beyond those three things, people just forgot because we've been stuck with the normal farm boy off and on for so long.

The point is that whether he's a good guy or a bad guy there are far more examples of Superman's power level being respected than not.

More so the bad guy in recent years, and was planned to go that route in Snyder's original plan in JL, which would have been even worse than what we got. At that point, since most Superman fans don't even want it, who cares?

And again, Superman fans can complain while knowing other characters get it worse. The other characters are irrelevant in their complaints, because they may not even be fans of them to begin with. Why would they bring it up? Or if they do, they do it elsewhere when they are not discussing their favorite.

[Midnight_v]

Never listen to someone who just WANTS a character to take a hard "L"
... never. There are a lot more people rooting for their favorites (and those are the ones keeping your book afloat) than rooting for someone else's favorite to fail (who typically nowdays want that character out of the way to give their favorite a chance to shine."

I'd agree if I thought Batman's wins all worked. Unfortuantely, they've set him up to win when other heroes lose. Specifically to have other heroes lose to him. Yeah, I'm a bit vindictive, and I want him to have to lose in response.

Well... its funny I wasn't writing that about you as I didn't read you previous posts. Sorry if it seemed like I was responding directly to you.
that being said.

Yeah... Im sure vindictiveness fall into exactly what I was talking about Not being listened to or considered for a narrative. Ymmv.

As far as the Idea of Batgod dying....

Ideas don't die.

You can explain it away in narrative or out. However now that he's blessed by the Old God Camazotz or has sat in metrons chair, snatched green laterns ring off. . .

Even if a writer or editor tried to but the genie back in the bottle ... the seal is broke. You will always have to deal with that aspect of the trinity as long as dc comics exisists.

Moreoever, if dc comics fails... when he gets reboot, if he's ever in a worlds finest situation?
The BatGod would be right back.

Its necessary for him to bring something to the table the other heroes cannot. So they make him the Smartest, and yes he's fought wonderwoman etc... he's an "S+" tier fighter.

The things you want our of vindictiveness, are too far away from happening and also... are potentially damaging to the most important BRAND dc has. .

But hey...
thats just like...

My opinion, man.