Stephanie Brown: Spoiler, Robin, Batgirl Appreciation 2018

[adrikito]

I have the complete scene in my pc but I forget where..

https://vavitsara.tumblr.com/post/17...atgirls-on-ice

She reminds me Spidergwen here..

[millernumber1]

She reminds me Spidergwen here..

Steph was first!

[MajorHoy]

She reminds me Spidergwen here..

Steph was first!

Well, Steph may pre-date Spider-Gwen, but Spider-Gwen is Gwen Stacy, who predates Steph by . . . a lot (over 25 years!).

From Amazing Spider-Man #31 (December 1965):


and from Detective Comics #647 (Early August 1992):

[millernumber1]

Well, Steph may pre-date Spider-Gwen, but Spider-Gwen is Gwen Stacy, who predates Steph by . . . a lot (over 25 years!).

I make no claims about Gwen, just the Spider version.

[Konja7]

I said that I'm somewhat indifferent to how Tynion wrote Stephanie in Detective comics (although I like her on Eternal).

However, I wonder about Tynion's plan for Stephanie. I mean, if you try to make Stephanie popular, I do not know if it's good idea to put her against the most popular character of DC (especially if you can not make the extremely popular character look bad).

[MajorHoy]

. . . if you try to make Stephanie popular, I do not know if it's good idea to put her against the most popular character of DC (especially if you can not make the extremely popular character look bad).

What about Jason Todd?

[Konja7]

What about Jason Todd?

Jason Todd was Robin (a lot more time than Stephanie), but he died, because his lack of popularity (people don't like his defiance to Batman). He return as a villian/antihero, so he start to gain more popularity (he's the fallen Robin after all).

I guess if Tynion wants Stephanie to become an antihero, this could have worked. Although Stephanie still doesn't have the connection and story with Bruce that Jason has.

[Jackalope89]

Jason Todd was Robin (a lot more time than Stephanie), but he died, because his lack of popularity (people don't like his defiance to Batman). He return as a villian/antihero, so he start to gain more popularity (he's the fallen Robin after all).

I guess if Tynion wants Stephanie to become an antihero, this could have worked. Although Stephanie still doesn't have the connection and story with Bruce that Jason has.

Steph as an anti-hero? Please no. Especially not right after reading her Batgirl run! Jason works because he was always the more rebellious Robin. Steph? She's the bubbly one that, even with her training, is still a little bit of a klutz.

[millernumber1]

I said that I'm somewhat indifferent to how Tynion wrote Stephanie in Detective comics (although I like her on Eternal).

However, I wonder about Tynion's plan for Stephanie. I mean, if you try to make Stephanie popular, I do not know if it's good idea to put her against the most popular character of DC (especially if you can not make the extremely popular character look bad).

Yeah, I think Tynion's plan was "make Steph an outsider again" and he built on Steph's distrust of Batman from her early memories of him threatening her father in Batman Eternal (which they should have made more explicit, but I definitely think it's there). And because Tynion also loves Batman as a better father figure than normal, it was hard to make Steph really the pure underdog she was before - she had to have elements of irrational grief and hypocrisy in her struggles against Batman, which really annoyed a lot of fans. I thought it was very sympathetic, but it was more complex, and thus not as uncomplicated in its appeal.

The other problem is Tynion also wanted to go back to Steph's roots as Spoiler, which means that she's a supporting character for Tim, which several fans also were frustrated with. I do think that the character who, like Steph, tells the main character to stop being a hero (basically, being the "stop having fun" character for the audience) does always face serious audience backlash, but I don't think Tynion intended us to feel that. I think he should have known it would happen, but I don't think that's the same as him intentionally making her dislikable.

I honestly don't know what Steph's long-term solo plan was, though, if Tynion had gotten the extra 18 issues to get to 1000. I know Cass and Jean-Paul had more plots with League of Shadows and St. Dumas, and there was the Ra's plot coming, but I don't know where it was going to go longterm with Steph.

Jason Todd was Robin (a lot more time than Stephanie), but he died, because his lack of popularity (people don't like his defiance to Batman). He return as a villian/antihero, so he start to gain more popularity (he's the fallen Robin after all).

I guess if Tynion wants Stephanie to become an antihero, this could have worked. Although Stephanie still doesn't have the connection and story with Bruce that Jason has.

Yeah, I think if you want Steph to be an anti-hero that people really think is appealing, you have to up the injustice that is done to her. She needs War Games back, like the excellent Steph as Red Hood fanfic, so fans have an emotional understanding of why she does bad things. As it is, she's had some rough stuff happen, but nothing that makes a large number of fans feel like she's even justified in being a solo hero opposed to Batman, let alone actually doing villainous stuff.

Steph as an anti-hero? Please no. Especially not right after reading her Batgirl run! Jason works because he was always the more rebellious Robin. Steph? She's the bubbly one that, even with her training, is still a little bit of a klutz.

Someone on Tumblr tried to say that the way DIXON set Steph up was clearly becoming a villain, but they were clearly either unfamiliar or forgetting key details in their construction, and got very sulky when I pushed back on the details of their narrative.

I think Steph is an outsider to the Batfamily, not an anti-hero, which leaves her in a very rough spot. I don't know if I'd say she's a klutz, just that she's much more "barge in and improvise" than "balletic grace" or "prep time." I think her perpetual struggle with gravity might be seen as klutziness, but it seems more self-deprecating than actual consistent failure.

[MajorHoy]

Steph as an anti-hero? Please no. Especially not right after reading her Batgirl run! Jason works because he was always the more rebellious Robin. Steph? She's the bubbly one that, even with her training, is still a little bit of a klutz.

That's really more of the post-CoIE version; he was initially (pre-CoIE) a pure Dick-clone through-and-through (right down to the circus-parents-killed-by-villain backstory, which Dick had actually been responsible for).

[Konja7]

That's really more of the post-CoIE version; he was initially (pre-CoIE) a pure Dick-clone through-and-through (right down to the circus-parents-killed-by-villain backstory, which Dick had actually been responsible for).

True.

His rebellious personality post-Coie wasn't precisely popular between fans. That is why DC put his death to a vote.

[millernumber1]

True.

His rebellious personality post-Coie wasn't precisely popular between fans. That is why DC put his death to a vote.

Jason fans tell me that's not the case, at least for them. And the vote by all accounts was very close. And yes, it's not good for a lead character or supporting character to have only 49% popularity, but that's hardly universal hatred.

Though I do think there's a similarity between Jason as Robin and Steph as an outsider/critic of Batman, in how it affects their popularity.

[Jackalope89]

That's really more of the post-CoIE version; he was initially (pre-CoIE) a pure Dick-clone through-and-through (right down to the circus-parents-killed-by-villain backstory, which Dick had actually been responsible for).

We don't talk about that version. Just like we don't talk about him magically having red hair during his stint in Arkham pre-Flashpoint.

[millernumber1]

We don't talk about that version. Just like we don't talk about him magically having red hair during his stint in Arkham pre-Flashpoint.

I wonder if this is like how no Steph fan talks about Batman Eternal #51 in trying to establish her character.

[MajorHoy]

We don't talk about that version. Just like we don't talk about him magically having red hair during his stint in Arkham pre-Flashpoint.

Wasn't Morrison the one who revived the red hair for Jason, or was that done earlier?