Stephanie Brown: Spoiler, Robin, Batgirl Appreciation 2018

[Newnime]

Hey, what do you guys think are the chances of Steph showing up in that new titans show?

[millernumber1]

Hey, what do you guys think are the chances of Steph showing up in that new titans show?

Pretty low, since Jason is the current Robin, and Steph has never been on a Titans team. I am torn about whether I would want that, since I don't really want a grimdark Steph.

[Newnime]

Not now obviously, but somewhere down the line. They say the first season is about getting the characters to lighten up and it will get more lighthearted.

[Dataweaver]

Coming in late, so this may have already been addressed; but:

- People don't want Stephanie interfere with Barbara as Batgirl. They can't even suggest that Barbara (a more popular character) can get a new identity, because she born being Batgirl, so she is the only one who "deserve" that identity. Although Cassandra also born for that identity, but she can't borrow that identity, because Barbara is the "original".


PS: I really like Barbara. She's a pretty interesting character.

I prefer Barbara as Oracle, just as I prefer Dick as Nightwing. To me, Barbara's return to being Batgirl was a step backwards for her, every bit as much as Dick returning to the Robin identity that he originated would be a massive step backward for him.

(And yeah, Barbara-as-Oracle had the whole “I'm paralyzed from the waist down” thing going, which many took as a knock against the character. Me, I saw it as a demonstration of how awesome she is that she didn't let it stop her. Oracle was a phoenix rising from the ashes of her time as Batgirl. Keeping her in the wheelchair when Bruce went through the “Bane broke my back, but now I'm Batman again” story arc was a more questionable move; I would have been fine with Babs eventually recovering and even suiting up again, but I would have much preferred it if she had adapted the Oracle identity from a strictly online persona to her new costumed identity, rather than going back to being Batgirl.)

[millernumber1]

Not now obviously, but somewhere down the line. They say the first season is about getting the characters to lighten up and it will get more lighthearted.

I think if they can move beyond the ludicrously (though entertainingly) grimdark stuff they're doing in the first two episodes, it could be great to see Steph.

I'm still putting most of my hopes on her having one episode of Young Justice where she's one of the main characters, though.

Coming in late, so this may have already been addressed; but:I prefer Barbara as Oracle, just as I prefer Dick as Nightwing. To me, Barbara's return to being Batgirl was a step backwards for her, every bit as much as Dick returning to the Robin identity that he originated would be a massive step backward for him.

(And yeah, Barbara-as-Oracle had the whole “I'm paralyzed from the waist down” thing going, which many took as a knock against the character. Me, I saw it as a demonstration of how awesome she is that she didn't let it stop her. Oracle was a phoenix rising from the ashes of her time as Batgirl. Keeping her in the wheelchair when Bruce went through the “Bane broke my back, but now I'm Batman again” story arc was a more questionable move; I would have been fine with Babs eventually recovering and even suiting up again, but I would have much preferred it if she had adapted the Oracle identity from a strictly online persona to her new costumed identity, rather than going back to being Batgirl.)

I also prefer Babs as purely Oracle, because I found the fact that she was an even greater hero than she was as Batgirl despite her disability was incredibly inspiring, when written well by Yale and Ostrander, Dixon and Simone, and Rucka and Miller. I also think that her going back to Batgirl is a demotion - but I also don't think that trying to take that away again is the way to go if we want fandom to become more unified.

That's why I think three Batgirls working together would give everyone what they want. Unless there really are fans of one of the three Batgirls who genuinely don't want the others to be awesome as well.

[Dataweaver]

If the two Robins thing goes through it's going to go a disaster. I peeked at the Tim and Damian threads and they're already angry over it.
Comics are a medium where fans can make a difference on the material. The reason they erased Steph from the universe in the first place was because they wanted Babs as Batgirl both Steph and Cass were a threat to that. Embracing Steph as Spoiler would be better for her in the long run because DC wouldn't consider her as (toxic) the way they do Steph as Batgirl.
If there's more Spoiler positivity people might use her more.

To be fair, the Tim fans are angry for a completely different reason than why the Damian fans are angry. The Damian fans don't like the fact that Tim is intruding on Damian's “turf”; the Tim fans are less concerned with there being more than one Robin than they are with Tim being “regressed”. It's like my recent comments about seeing Babs going from Oracle to Batgirl and Stephanie going from Batgirl to Spoiler as a step down: pre-Flashpoint, Tim had grown beyond being Robin; and while many might hate the codename he took for himself, his move to being Red Robin was very much the same sort of move as when Dick Grayson gave up the Robin identity to become Nightwing. Now, I personally don't have a problem with Tim going back to the Robin identity at this point; but that's because he's been Robin in all but name ever since Flashpoint; when they de-aged him and wiped out nearly all of his history. And, as many have pointed out, even the name hasn't been all that different. So to me, having him go back to being Robin from the post-Flashpoint version of Red Robin isn't so much a step backward as it is a refreshing but of honesty: it's basically an admission of what Flashpoint did to him.

As for Stephanie as Robin, my feelings there are similar to my feelings about Barbara as Oracle: “We Are Robin” was a missed opportunity to restore that part of Stephanie's history by putting her in with the We Are Robin gang. Now that We Are Robin is over and done with, there's no reasonable chance of getting her back into her Robin outfit for anything more than a brief cameo: given their relationship at the start and end of their run in Detective Comics, I could see Stephanie modeling a Robin outfit for Tim at some point; but that's as close as I can see Stephanie getting to the Robin identity under the current circumstances.

I, too, would love to see a “Team Batgirl” featuring Babs, Cass, and Steph — though the way I'd do it would be for all three of them to use variations on the Batgirl costume (i.e., each goes with the look that she introduced), while using different call-signs (e.g., Babs goes by “Oracle” and Steph goes by “Spoiler” when they're using comms in situations where they can't be sure that their privacy is guaranteed, because all of them going by “Batgirl” would be confusing).

[Konja7]

To be fair, the Tim fans are angry for a completely different reason than why the Damian fans are angry. The Damian fans don't like the fact that Tim is intruding on Damian's “turf”; the Tim fans are less concerned with there being more than one Robin than they are with Tim being “regressed”. It's like my recent comments about seeing Babs going from Oracle to Batgirl and Stephanie going from Batgirl to Spoiler as a step down: pre-Flashpoint, Tim had grown beyond being Robin; and while many might hate the codename he took for himself, his move to being Red Robin was very much the same sort of move as when Dick Grayson gave up the Robin identity to become Nightwing. Now, I personally don't have a problem with Tim going back to the Robin identity at this point; but that's because he's been Robin in all but name ever since Flashpoint; when they de-aged him and wiped out nearly all of his history. And, as many have pointed out, even the name hasn't been all that different. So to me, having him go back to being Robin from the post-Flashpoint version of Red Robin isn't so much a step backward as it is a refreshing but of honesty: it's basically an admission of what Flashpoint did to him.

As you say, the case of Tim isn't really a regression, since the character has not lost so much. Tim did not have as much time to consolidate as Red Robin before Flashpoint happened (and the name wasn't so independent from Robin).

Also, the identity of Robin is good for Tim, since it can help him to overcome his current difficult situation in DC.

I, too, would love to see a “Team Batgirl” featuring Babs, Cass, and Steph — though the way I'd do it would be for all three of them to use variations on the Batgirl costume (i.e., each goes with the look that she introduced), while using different call-signs (e.g., Babs goes by “Oracle” and Steph goes by “Spoiler” when they're using comms in situations where they can't be sure that their privacy is guaranteed, because all of them going by “Batgirl” would be confusing).

If a team of Batgirl happened, I think the sign-calls will be something more related to Batgirl or the Batfamily. I don't think Oracle, Spoiler or Orphan would be used, but Blackbat would be a good option.

Unfortunately a team of Bargirls seems pretty unlikely, since Cassandra as Orphan is in Batman and Outsiders comic.

[Jackalope89]

As you say, the case of Tim isn't really a regression, since the character has not lost so much. Tim did not have as much time to consolidate as Red Robin before Flashpoint happened (and the name wasn't so independent from Robin).

Also, the identity of Robin is good for Tim, since it can help him to overcome his current difficult situation in DC.




If a team of Batgirl happened, I think the sign-calls will be something more related to Batgirl or the Batfamily. I don't think Oracle, Spoiler or Orphan would be used, but Blackbat would be a good option.

Unfortunately a team of Bargirls seems pretty unlikely, since Cassandra as Orphan is in Batman and Outsiders comic.

Unless DC can get the rights to it, don't expect to see "Black Bat" on a DC title any time soon.

[Konja7]

Unless DC can get the rights to it, don't expect to see "Black Bat" on a DC title any time soon.

I didn't know there's a problem of rights. That explains why the don't use this identity for Cassandra.

[Jackalope89]

I didn't know there's a problem of rights. That explains why the don't use this identity for Cassandra.

Yep. The original Black Bat actually predates even Superman, but an ongoing was published back in 2011.

[millernumber1]

To be fair, the Tim fans are angry for a completely different reason than why the Damian fans are angry. The Damian fans don't like the fact that Tim is intruding on Damian's “turf”; the Tim fans are less concerned with there being more than one Robin than they are with Tim being “regressed”. It's like my recent comments about seeing Babs going from Oracle to Batgirl and Stephanie going from Batgirl to Spoiler as a step down: pre-Flashpoint, Tim had grown beyond being Robin; and while many might hate the codename he took for himself, his move to being Red Robin was very much the same sort of move as when Dick Grayson gave up the Robin identity to become Nightwing. Now, I personally don't have a problem with Tim going back to the Robin identity at this point; but that's because he's been Robin in all but name ever since Flashpoint; when they de-aged him and wiped out nearly all of his history. And, as many have pointed out, even the name hasn't been all that different. So to me, having him go back to being Robin from the post-Flashpoint version of Red Robin isn't so much a step backward as it is a refreshing but of honesty: it's basically an admission of what Flashpoint did to him.

As for Stephanie as Robin, my feelings there are similar to my feelings about Barbara as Oracle: “We Are Robin” was a missed opportunity to restore that part of Stephanie's history by putting her in with the We Are Robin gang. Now that We Are Robin is over and done with, there's no reasonable chance of getting her back into her Robin outfit for anything more than a brief cameo: given their relationship at the start and end of their run in Detective Comics, I could see Stephanie modeling a Robin outfit for Tim at some point; but that's as close as I can see Stephanie getting to the Robin identity under the current circumstances.

I, too, would love to see a “Team Batgirl” featuring Babs, Cass, and Steph — though the way I'd do it would be for all three of them to use variations on the Batgirl costume (i.e., each goes with the look that she introduced), while using different call-signs (e.g., Babs goes by “Oracle” and Steph goes by “Spoiler” when they're using comms in situations where they can't be sure that their privacy is guaranteed, because all of them going by “Batgirl” would be confusing).

If this were the Red Robin that Yost and Nicieza wrote, I'd agree that it was a regression, but the Red Robin of the n52/Rebirth really isn't the same, even though he has some of the personality issues from FabNic's run (the cockiness, darkness). So it doesn't feel like going back so much as setting right, to me.

I don't know if I've said it in the current thread, but I think there is a danger with Steph being in the We Are Robin title. She would be Robin again, but almost all of those Robins are gone, and none of them are considered "real Robins" by 99% of the fandom. So it would be a nice homage, but probably would have been more long term damaging to her trajectory than continuing as Spoiler as she'd been established. But we can't know for sure.

I don't think there's much of a chance of Steph as direct partner to Batman Robin at this point - you'd need someone who really wanted to buck trends on Batman or Detective Comics. But I think it would be fun.

Interesting thoughts on how the Batgirls might communicate with each other. I think the way Javier Garron drew Steph and Cass is a reasonable update to their iconic looks (though I'd probably want a bit more classic Cass) in Future's End, but I'd also envisioned the end of Batman: The Brave and the Bold #13, where we see the Batgirls as a backup team to the Robins, all in their classic outfits.

As you say, the case of Tim isn't really a regression, since the character has not lost so much. Tim did not have as much time to consolidate as Red Robin before Flashpoint happened (and the name wasn't so independent from Robin).

Also, the identity of Robin is good for Tim, since it can help him to overcome his current difficult situation in DC.

If a team of Batgirl happened, I think the sign-calls will be something more related to Batgirl or the Batfamily. I don't think Oracle, Spoiler or Orphan would be used, but Blackbat would be a good option.

Unfortunately a team of Bargirls seems pretty unlikely, since Cassandra as Orphan is in Batman and Outsiders comic.

There are a lot of fans who still think that while Red Robin was a nice "graduation" for Tim, it felt too temporary for them to really have a lot of attachment to it. And a lot don't like the Dr. Mid-Nite cowl. I don't share those feelings, but I do think there's a certain element in the Tim core fandom that holds it fairly strongly.

It all depends on the writers to do something good, as usual. I would have though Steph in Batgirl during the Burnside run was unlikely, but it did happen! (Not that Steph and Cass joining Babs is equally likely, but I think it would be much better for sales and fandom.)

[millernumber1]

http://www.shesfantastic.com/2018/10...s-spoiler.html

A great review of the new Spoiler action figure, which also alerted me to Steph's Robin Heroclix that I have now ordered...

[Jackalope89]

[millernumber1]

An underrated moment

Really wish Seeley was interested in a Spoiler book.

[Jackalope89]

Ah, poor thieves. They never wanted to swing through Gotham. Probably afraid of heights too.