Stephanie Brown: Spoiler, Robin, Batgirl Appreciation 2018

[Armor of God]

He made her unlikable and completely beholden to Tim on every level. Her skills were the same as Harper and Tim, genius hacker. And she spent half of his run on Tec absent from the book because Tim was absent. Even the debut story Batman Eternal gave her nothing as they were too busy setting up Harper for Bluebird.

I dont think sales are a factor, Tec is a flagship Bat book so it was never in real danger due to that alone.

[millernumber1]

1) I still liked her, as did many other fans.

2) I do not think she's beholden to Tim on every level - there's a sense of complementarity and criticism which, when Tynion was at his best, served to advance both characters. I would agree that Steph's arc tended to be subsumed in other characters more than any other characters in the book except Batwing, but she had her own goals and priorities.

3) Steph got an origin, several relationships (with Harper, Batman, and Tim) out of Batman Eternal. She lost a lot of it in Batman and Robin Eternal, but she did get an excellent scene with Scarecrow by Valentine.

Without Tynion, Steph wouldn't exist in current continuity, so even if some people don't like how he handled her, I don't think bringing her back and putting her in a flagship book is "doing a number on her."

Do I think Steph is as popular as I'd like her to be? No. Do I think that's partly because of a reaction to Tynion's run? Well, obviously, since outside of a couple of guest spots in Batgirl, Catwoman, and Birds of Prey, Tynion's the only writer to touch her. But I think there's a lot more fans who liked Tynion's work with Steph and simply don't come on boards where what they like is constantly being attacked.

[Armor of God]

1) I still liked her, as did many other fans.

2) I do not think she's beholden to Tim on every level - there's a sense of complementarity and criticism which, when Tynion was at his best, served to advance both characters. I would agree that Steph's arc tended to be subsumed in other characters more than any other characters in the book except Batwing, but she had her own goals and priorities.

3) Steph got an origin, several relationships (with Harper, Batman, and Tim) out of Batman Eternal. She lost a lot of it in Batman and Robin Eternal, but she did get an excellent scene with Scarecrow by Valentine.

Without Tynion, Steph wouldn't exist in current continuity, so even if some people don't like how he handled her, I don't think bringing her back and putting her in a flagship book is "doing a number on her."

Do I think Steph is as popular as I'd like her to be? No. Do I think that's partly because of a reaction to Tynion's run? Well, obviously, since outside of a couple of guest spots in Batgirl, Catwoman, and Birds of Prey, Tynion's the only writer to touch her. But I think there's a lot more fans who liked Tynion's work with Steph and simply don't come on boards where what they like is constantly being attacked.

But she's supposed to be likable, if people are hating on a likable character then that's a problem.

I recall her goal being to troll Batman which ofcourse isn't something that wins favors from fans and even that angle was barely followed upon and casually dropped when Tim returned which in turn made Steph even more unlikable and hypocritical.

A rehashed weak origin that was sandwiched between dozens or so plot lines in a 52 issue weekly book. A relationship with Harper is meaningless and she only interacted with Tim in the final issue for one scene. There was barely any interaction with Batman either because she spent 45 issues avoiding him.

I think thats giving Tynion too much credit. Someone would have brought her back eventually and a lack of use is better than utter misuse. Look at where Steph is now, Tim's in YJ, Azrael is in JL Odyssey while Cass and Duke are in Outsiders. Steph is nowhere.

[Flashback]

But she's supposed to be likable, if people are hating on a likable character then that's a problem.

I recall her goal being to troll Batman which ofcourse isn't something that wins favors from fans and even that angle was barely followed upon and casually dropped when Tim returned which in turn made Steph even more unlikable and hypocritical.

A rehashed weak origin that was sandwiched between dozens or so plot lines in a 52 issue weekly book. A relationship with Harper is meaningless and she only interacted with Tim in the final issue for one scene. There was barely any interaction with Batman either because she spent 45 issues avoiding him.

I think thats giving Tynion too much credit. Someone would have brought her back eventually and a lack of use is better than utter misuse. Look at where Steph is now, Tim's in YJ, Azrael is in JL Odyssey while Cass and Duke are in Outsiders. Steph is nowhere.

Tell that to the fans of justice society who are still waiting for them to come back...

Would someone have brought her back? sure, but who knows how long fans would have to wait for her to appeared.

Tim hasn't had a solo yet, so not there and King's has his own plan, which don't involve her.

Most character's can always be redeemed and bounce back from a "bad" arc....unless your initials are H.P

[Armor of God]

YJ came back with Bendis and Gleason
The Society hasn't even been gone for 2 years. I know people like to pretend that Earth-2 franchise never happened but it did happen. They'll be back in less than a year with a new high profile team.

She didn't just have a bad arc. Her and Cass are shadows of their former selves. Tynion completely distorted their backstories and that to service Harper Row who is already finished. They're going to need a new reintroduction altogether.

[Flashback]

YJ came back with Bendis and Gleason
The Society hasn't even been gone for 2 years. I know people like to pretend that Earth-2 franchise never happened but it did happen. They'll be back in less than a year with a new high profile team.

She didn't just have a bad arc. Her and Cass are shadows of their former selves. Tynion completely distorted their backstories and that to service Harper Row who is already finished. They're going to need a new reintroduction altogether.

Almost all character are "shadows" of their former selves or had chunks of their past altered. Tynion had to work within this new universe, Harper Row on the other hand was a new character and so had a clean slate for him to work on. The only ones who have most of their history intact is Batman, (i think) green lantern, Damian, and of course Superman.

Cass and her have been sharing the spotlight in already crowded books since most of their appearances, and they're always going to be shadows of their former selves until their written more in comics.

[millernumber1]

But she's supposed to be likable, if people are hating on a likable character then that's a problem.

I recall her goal being to troll Batman which ofcourse isn't something that wins favors from fans and even that angle was barely followed upon and casually dropped when Tim returned which in turn made Steph even more unlikable and hypocritical.

A rehashed weak origin that was sandwiched between dozens or so plot lines in a 52 issue weekly book. A relationship with Harper is meaningless and she only interacted with Tim in the final issue for one scene. There was barely any interaction with Batman either because she spent 45 issues avoiding him.

I think thats giving Tynion too much credit. Someone would have brought her back eventually and a lack of use is better than utter misuse. Look at where Steph is now, Tim's in YJ, Azrael is in JL Odyssey while Cass and Duke are in Outsiders. Steph is nowhere.

Steph has ALWAYS had an intense contingent of haters. Every time I get involved in a discussion of War Games, there's someone who says "Steph should have stayed dead."

I do think there's an inherent difficulty in a character whose arc is to say that Batman - the most popular character in comics - shouldn't be Batman. I think Tynion gave Steph sympathetic motivation for that argument, but putting her at odds with Batman was always going to be a tricky proposition. In the 90s, Dixon et al wrote that conflict in such a way so that Batman was often seen as Bat-jerk (and in the 2000s, that got way worse with Beatty, Gabrych, and Willingham leading to War Games). Tynion, despite all claims that he "hates Batman", wanted to preserve the core of Batman's character as heroic and desiring to mentor his young charges, which means that more of the responsibility for generating the conflict had to be Steph's - but that also means that instead of being a victim of Batman's emotional frozenness/sexism/what have you, Steph has her own agency in their conflict. Does that mean she's no longer an uncomplicated underdog, standing up for herself against Batman's irrational rejection? Yes, Tynion made Steph more complicated, and that does mean that the already vehement "Steph should have stayed dead" contingent will come back and argue more for how she's a terrible character. But it also means Steph has a stronger individual story.

In terms of Steph's goal being to "troll" Batman - I completely reject that framing, since Steph never did it because she wanted to annoy Batman - she did it because she earnestly believed that Batman was making things worse in Gotham. "Trolling," to me, indicates a lack of sincerity, which Tynion never depicts in Steph. As for Steph's opposition to Batman being dropped casually when Tim returned...that's simply not true. She leaves the team following Clayface's death because Tim reinforces her problems with Batman's methods, and when she returns in 979 and 980, she's clearly still philosophically struggling with Batman's methods.

A relationship with Harper is not meaningless - it played heavily into Steph's solo arc with Anarky. I think Batman Eternal does have plotting flaws - Steph running away in issue 51, and the fact that the villains just reveal themselves to Batman instead of being discovered through detection are the biggest ones, for me. But on the whole, it's a fun adventure that gives a huge cast development and enjoyable adventures.

It took 2 full years for ANYONE to bring Steph back. Bryan Q. Miller couldn't even do it in an AU. So I think that "someone would have brought her back" is an impossible claim to prove, and the claim that "Steph is nowhere right now" actually works against that claim, because it shows that other than Tynion, no one else is a big enough fan to bring her back or use her.

She didn't just have a bad arc. Her and Cass are shadows of their former selves. Tynion completely distorted their backstories and that to service Harper Row who is already finished. They're going to need a new reintroduction altogether.

Tynion's reworking of Steph's backstory isn't perfect. But he deliberately made her a key element in a massive experiment with DC's biggest writer, and also made her a key element in one of DC's most consistent selling titles. I was and continue to be frustrated that he wrote her out of Tec multiple times - but it's clear that he had a plotline for her, and wanted to honor the core of her character and history. That intention may not have been executed perfectly - I still believe that a lot of Steph's arc was contained in the 19 issues Tynion lost when he left for Justice League, but it's there for careful reading.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

Hopefully she'll be in Young Justice.

[millernumber1]

Hopefully she'll be in Young Justice.

I definitely hope she'll be in BOTH Young Justice comics - the prequel to the new season of the show, and Bendis's book.

But I think it's unlikely, which is totally unjust.

[SixSpeedSamurai]

I definitely hope she'll be in BOTH Young Justice comics - the prequel to the new season of the show, and Bendis's book.

But I think it's unlikely, which is totally unjust.

I agree, you know how I stand, she and Tim are a package deal to me.

[millernumber1]

I agree, you know how I stand, she and Tim are a package deal to me.

I wish DC was as wise as you.

[MajorHoy]

. . . The Society hasn't even been gone for 2 years. I know people like to pretend that Earth-2 franchise never happened but it did happen.

Oh it's not a case of pretending that series didn't happen, but that wasn't really the Justice Society of America.
Saying they were the same thing as this group:


is like saying this guy:

is the same character as the red-headed Wally West who first appeared back in 1959.

[SneakyLookingSort]

I recall her goal being to troll Batman which ofcourse isn't something that wins favors from fans and even that angle was barely followed upon and casually dropped when Tim returned which in turn made Steph even more unlikable and hypocritical.
e.

I think most of us who hated the early 2000's Batjerk and late 00's Batgod loved every moment of that :P

I definitely hope she'll be in BOTH Young Justice comics - the prequel to the new season of the show, and Bendis's book.

But I think it's unlikely, which is totally unjust.

Now that I think about it, Bendis not writing Steph would be a huge missed opportunity because she is one of the few characters his usual quippy dialogue would fit perfectly.

[WhipWhirlwind]

Hopefully she'll be in Young Justice.

Agreed, she's very adaptable, so she could fit pretty much any role.

She's got a costumed identity, but could very easily be retooled into a supporting role for a bit. I don't mind the idea of her exploring ways she can help people out of costume, even while working directly with costumes.

[millernumber1]

I think most of us who hated the early 2000's Batjerk and late 00's Batgod loved every moment of that :P

This is part of what I was saying - the people who really loved Steph before think she had good, if not always consistent, reasons for what she did in Tynion's run. The people who didn't like her in Tynion's Tec run often, but not always, tend to be the people who didn't like her as Batgirl, Robin, or Spoiler before.