Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[master of read]

Latest chapter of Hinomaru Zumo is excellent. I've been a bit on the fence about the series to be honest, I actually fell off for a long while but I went back recently and caught up and I'm very impressed by the direction it's been taking, this most recent chapter being a capstone.

It's really quite emblematic of how storytelling in manga at large has evolved over the years.

spoilers:

You flat out would not have had a protagonist, strong man type character in a shonen-ass shonen sports series admitting his fears of injury and abandonment in such a candid way as Ushio just did and being presented as such an important moment of his mental development and mental health.

end of spoilers

In a series that is about big beefy guys having big beefy fights, it's very interesting that the most impactful moment in the series thus far for me was two characters talking in a hotel room.

Between this and Ippo, sports manga have been on a really good kick of introspection recently.

it's been a good ride. and that match he had with jinou was eye-opening.

but i have a bad feeling about the next few chapters, given what we saw.

[master of read]

Latest chapter of Hinomaru Zumo is excellent. I've been a bit on the fence about the series to be honest, I actually fell off for a long while but I went back recently and caught up and I'm very impressed by the direction it's been taking, this most recent chapter being a capstone.

It's really quite emblematic of how storytelling in manga at large has evolved over the years.

spoilers:

You flat out would not have had a protagonist, strong man type character in a shonen-ass shonen sports series admitting his fears of injury and abandonment in such a candid way as Ushio just did and being presented as such an important moment of his mental development and mental health.

end of spoilers

In a series that is about big beefy guys having big beefy fights, it's very interesting that the most impactful moment in the series thus far for me was two characters talking in a hotel room.

Between this and Ippo, sports manga have been on a really good kick of introspection recently.

it's been a good ride. and that match he had with jinou was eye-opening.

but i have a bad feeling about the next few chapters, given what we saw.

[Dark Soul # 7]

Cool fight, and snazzy ass music too.

[Hiromi]

Lol you're late and it's not even me this time

[Dark Soul # 7]

Lol you're late and it's not even me this time

*shrugs*

Meh, new page. I ain't got time to check the previous one.

[master of read]

after watching some gameplay of G, i really like this guy. so much swag and charisma. and his moveset is on point.

and the small connections to Q is fun to think about.

[bruceleegreyhulk]

[Hazard]

Latest chapter of Hinomaru Zumo is excellent. I've been a bit on the fence about the series to be honest, I actually fell off for a long while but I went back recently and caught up and I'm very impressed by the direction it's been taking, this most recent chapter being a capstone.

It's really quite emblematic of how storytelling in manga at large has evolved over the years.

spoilers:

You flat out would not have had a protagonist, strong man type character in a shonen-ass shonen sports series admitting his fears of injury and abandonment in such a candid way as Ushio just did and being presented as such an important moment of his mental development and mental health.

end of spoilers

In a series that is about big beefy guys having big beefy fights, it's very interesting that the most impactful moment in the series thus far for me was two characters talking in a hotel room.

Between this and Ippo, sports manga have been on a really good kick of introspection recently.

Speaking of Ippo, I really hope he doesn't return to the ring... even if the writing is going out of its way to hint at said return.

[master of read]

Speaking of Ippo, I really hope he doesn't return to the ring... even if the writing is going out of its way to hint at said return.

he really shouldn't. this storyline is a lot more interesting and compelling.

[Sharkerbob]

Generic rules -- especially ones made to deal with all manner of genres -- give me hives.

They give me gas.

Yes, that’s right. GURPS gives me burps.

How do you guys feel about about systems like TORG, or New World of Darkness, where they have a core system, and then the different branches of games either add or modify it?

I haven't actually looked at it, but I know TORG is infamous for being particularly clunky with it. However, the idea seemed interesting: it was a multi-genre game, where each genre was covered in a different part of the setting and added its own mechanics to simulate different worlds' power systems. That sounds like a headache, but I think Anima has a different system for each branch of power, right? Sounds like it might be comparable, but TORG maybe just didn't slot things in right.

[Nik Hasta]

So I watched Shannon Strucci's video essays (the two parts that are out at the moment anyway) last night and it was one of the most illuminating and brilliant pieces of work I've seen in a while.

It also made me very sad but in a kind of helpful way. Would highly recommend the series to anyone with an interest in YouTube culture.

[Sharpandpointies]

How do you guys feel about about systems like TORG, or New World of Darkness, where they have a core system, and then the different branches of games either add or modify it?

My feelings on TORG specifically are a matter of record, so to speak. Regarding the whole idea....

I think it's DOABLE, since these systems you offer up as examples are systems that aren't 'generic'. They have specific settings. They can work if the designers....

1. Don't try to cover TOO much;
2. Have an understanding of what they're planning from the start, and don't try to shoehorn in more later that might not fight the original rules;
3. Have a means to balance the systems.

TORG tried to pull this off, and failed...mostly because they had no real way to balance it (it looked like they did on paper, but that didn't work out). Oh, and had crappy writers (my opinion). The clunkiness was an issue, somewhat, but was mitigated by the fact that it DID do some things rather well. Really, it was the poor writing and balance that killed it, from my perspective.

RIFTS has tried to pull this off, but is sadly hampered by lack of balance and a really, really crappy system (sorry, Palladium, but after playing somewhere around half-a-hundred different systems, yours does not impress).

Old World of Darkness pulled this off by pointing out again and again that the games weren't MEANT to be played with each other, for the most part. They didn't perfectly mesh. If one tried to slam them together in a mega-campaign, it turned into Urban Fantasy D&D for the most part (though one could manage somewhat with having a 'core game' in one's campaign and using the others as supplements, if you get my drift), and there WERE balancing issues. I can't speak to NWoD, I've never played it.

Anima succeeds in having a different system for each branch of power. The benefit of the different system for each branch of power is that each branch is distinct and flavourful, with its own advantages and disadvantages (as opposed to, for example, D&D, where every branch of supernatural power is some variation on 'D&D spells'). The difficulty with it is that it's not entirely balanced (better than some games, mind, but not entirely), a fact which is somewhat mitigated by the setting itself (going all-out with supernatural powers, if the setting is played as presented, can have pretty hefty consequences). Additionally, there are options for everyone; this isn't the case of the 'linear fighter/quadratic wizard', hence me saying it's not ENTIRELY balanced (I mean, if one goes for a balls-to-the-walls combat game - which is NOT the point of the game, I'll note - sure, there are a few classes/powers that get left behind, but in pretty much ANY other game, everyone can shine).

[bruceleegreyhulk]

today the world has lost yet another great singer. Rip Aretha Franklin the Queen of Soul. there's hardly any woman in the music industry today that could match the vocals of Aretha Franklin.

https://www.cnn.com/2018/08/16/enter...ead/index.html

[Beadle]

My feelings on TORG specifically are a matter of record, so to speak. Regarding the whole idea....

I think it's DOABLE, since these systems you offer up as examples are systems that aren't 'generic'. They have specific settings. They can work if the designers....

1. Don't try to cover TOO much;
2. Have an understanding of what they're planning from the start, and don't try to shoehorn in more later that might not fight the original rules;
3. Have a means to balance the systems.

I’ll go with that. But I would also add:

4. Actually have a set of rules that feels useable in the first place. There’s no point creating a universal system if the one thing you’re actually delivering is awful (Seriously, TORG gameplay was weak and at points a bit random - “We’ve made these cards that you need to use at certain times because... because... We’ve made these cards that you need to use.”)

TORG tried to pull this off, and failed...mostly because they had no real way to balance it (it looked like they did on paper, but that didn't work out). Oh, and had crappy writers (my opinion). The clunkiness was an issue, somewhat, but was mitigated by the fact that it DID do some things rather well. Really, it was the poor writing and balance that killed it, from my perspective.

It's a triumph of concept and high-level lore over mechanics and execution.

As you know, I have a real nostalgic fondness for TORG, but it’s like an old war wound that you wistfully run your fingers over while remembering the camaraderie.

The conceptual stuff (The High Lords, the merging of realities / cosms, the different rules for different levels of tech / spirit / magic etc.) was all good. As a player it’s like the ultimate sandbox (“Whoa - you mean I can play a dragon-rider who teams up with a high-tech ninja?! Awesome!!”) but one of the problems is EXACTLY that broad range of characters. Like you said, the balance is completely cocked, and it got worse the further they went with releasing stuff.

It was bad enough with the initial releases, where you had a Living Land lizard-man with a spear or an Aylish dwarf with an axe in the same party as a cyber-priest hacking into the Godnet and blasting the **** out of things with a high-tech energy weapon. But then they started releasing more extremes like comparatively flimsy Land Below insect men and savages being directly involved in the same adventuring parties as a Tharkold cyber-demon or an Akashan ‘Space God’ warrior packing ultra-effective biotech armour and hand-held plasma cannons. It was IMPOSSIBLE to balance that.

Then you factor in some of the weird rules stuff and, like you said, some pretty limited writing (which I think comes when a couple of guys develop something as a pet vanity project and do it all themselves). Oh, and some really weird decisions with the books, like having the Cyberpapacy book talk about hacking into the aforementioned Godnet and surfing it, but then... oh, right... so the Godnet itself is actually detailed in another book entirely, that was released later, so if you chose to play a hacker character initially you could do... nothing much.

I just regret when I think what it could have been.

RIFTS has tried to pull this off, but is sadly hampered by lack of balance and a really, really crappy system (sorry, Palladium, but after playing somewhere around half-a-hundred different systems, yours does not impress).

Agreed. I played a fair bit of Heroes Unlimited and a smidgen of RIFTS, and... clunky. You could actually feel the numbers dragging and scraping on the floor as you tried to walk through the campaigns.

Old World of Darkness pulled this off by pointing out again and again that the games weren't MEANT to be played with each other, for the most part. They didn't perfectly mesh. If one tried to slam them together in a mega-campaign, it turned into Urban Fantasy D&D for the most part (though one could manage somewhat with having a 'core game' in one's campaign and using the others as supplements, if you get my drift), and there WERE balancing issues. I can't speak to NWoD, I've never played it.

And that’s how you do it. You say this system works with this setting and this setting but the two settings are not meant to work together. It’s just common sense.

Anima succeeds in having a different system for each branch of power. The benefit of the different system for each branch of power is that each branch is distinct and flavourful, with its own advantages and disadvantages (as opposed to, for example, D&D, where every branch of supernatural power is some variation on 'D&D spells'). The difficulty with it is that it's not entirely balanced (better than some games, mind, but not entirely), a fact which is somewhat mitigated by the setting itself (going all-out with supernatural powers, if the setting is played as presented, can have pretty hefty consequences). Additionally, there are options for everyone; this isn't the case of the 'linear fighter/quadratic wizard', hence me saying it's not ENTIRELY balanced (I mean, if one goes for a balls-to-the-walls combat game - which is NOT the point of the game, I'll note - sure, there are a few classes/powers that get left behind, but in pretty much ANY other game, everyone can shine).

But as much as I love Anima, increasingly it’s getting problematic because, again, it’s one guy’s project (although he’s apparently both more talented and more willing to outsource than the TORG guys). So we get a long, slow drip-feed of books and it takes so long that he keeps revising the rules between books. We have about... what? 1/3rd of the planned source books released? And we’re moving onto our third iteration of the rules, and he doesn’t always go back and revise the earlier books to match the new rules, so you end up with a hotch-potch mix.

Of course, that’s not really anything to do with generic rules, it’s just... a thing with Anima these days.

[Sharpandpointies]

I’ll go with that. But I would also add:

4. Actually have a set of rules that feels useable in the first place. There’s no point creating a universal system if the one thing you’re actually delivering is awful (Seriously, TORG gameplay was weak and at points a bit random - “We’ve made these cards that you need to use at certain times because... because... We’ve made these cards that you need to use.”)

One can throw that in if one wants. Myself, I feel it's somewhat redundant; if one doesn't have useable rules, the game is unplayable whether it mashes systems together or not.

The conceptual stuff (The High Lords, the merging of realities / cosms, the different rules for different levels of tech / spirit / magic etc.) was all good. As a player it’s like the ultimate sandbox (“Whoa - you mean I can play a dragon-rider who teams up with a high-tech ninja?! Awesome!!”) but one of the problems is EXACTLY that broad range of characters. Like you said, the balance is completely cocked, and it got worse the further they went with releasing stuff.

It was bad enough with the initial releases, where you had a Living Land lizard-man with a spear or an Aylish dwarf with an axe in the same party as a cyber-priest hacking into the Godnet and blasting the **** out of things with a high-tech energy weapon. But then they started releasing more extremes like comparatively flimsy Land Below insect men and savages being directly involved in the same adventuring parties as a Tharkold cyber-demon or an Akashan ‘Space God’ warrior packing ultra-effective biotech armour and hand-held plasma cannons. It was IMPOSSIBLE to balance that.

Crap fell apart.

The whole idea of balance was the business of 'but in 99% of realities, the Space God's super-tech simply won't work well, if at all!' Which...wasn't held up by the rules. There was a singularly lousy chance of said Tech falling apart, and that chance could be completely obviated for an ENTIRE SCENE by spending a single Possibility.

So when the Space God wanted to monster around on everyone, the Space God did.

Unlike Anima where -- if the GM is playing the setting -- one CAN monster around on everyone, but it'll come back to bite one in the ass at some point. Possibly badly, if one has really exaggerated said monstering around (yes, it's Inquisitor Marchusius, come to say hello).

Agreed. I played a fair bit of Heroes Unlimited and a smidgen of RIFTS, and... clunky. You could actually feel the numbers dragging and scraping on the floor as you tried to walk through the campaigns.

The early Palladium game was an acceptable -- if completely unbalanced -- alternative to the D&D of the time. It had a better system than 1st edition D&D in terms of breadth (actual skills!), but it made TORG look balanced; the simple fact was that if you went 'fighter' or 'rogue' type, you were utter garbage compared to the magic-users (Priests, Warlocks, Wizards) by about level 4. Level 8 'Fighters' were whapping people 3-4 times a round for something like 2-12 + 10 damage each hit (if not defended), while the Fire Warlock was vomiting out eight mini-fireballs, each dishing out 8d4 damage (no save) if they hit (potential for critical hits as well), potentially twice per round as long as his spells-per-day held out. And it got far worse from there.

Later Palladium games became hypercomplicated, with too much resource management and redundancies, while ignoring fundamental rules like 'How did the skills actually WORK?'. Also, a focus on Firearms Uber Alles, because man, Siembieda did like what he felt were 'realistic' firearm rules (or something along those lines and also, they weren't realistic really).

Then came RIFTS, and the mega-damage debacle, and...ugh.

But as much as I love Anima, increasingly it’s getting problematic because, again, it’s one guy’s project (although he’s apparently both more talented and more willing to outsource than the TORG guys). So we get a long, slow drip-feed of books and it takes so long that he keeps revising the rules between books. We have about... what? 1/3rd of the planned source books released? And we’re moving onto our third iteration of the rules, and he doesn’t always go back and revise the earlier books to match the new rules, so you end up with a hotch-potch mix.

Thing with Anima is this: we have enough without anything new.

The rules are actually overburdened; we didn't actually NEED the magic items book, that was something demanded by (presumably D&D-accustomed) players (the writer has stated he never intended to make one). We have sufficient world books (especially if one counts Gaia II which, I know, is only good in French, but it's out there!). We have sufficient rule books (Core, Dominus, Arcana, GM's guide, Those Who Walked Past My Cat, WorldBook which is hilarious fun, short as it happens to be, etc).

What is to come is mostly flavour - rules for the gods, the powers in the shadows, the Wake, Hell, etc. None of that is actually necessary!

Rule-wise, Anima is pretty complete.

Yeah, things will get confusing if they make a 3rd edition then all of the later supplements are based on that, but...that doesn't affect what we already have. ^_^ That I won't be able to perfectly stat out an Imperium Patriarch in his Jürganeth mecha isn't something I'm particularly worried about...

I could run 100 games with what I have. Easily (but not simultaneously! ^_^). And the world will still feel complete.