Downtown Khazan: Ice Cold Utopia

[Tami]

That looks like someone bled all over it. Or maybe like it's gonna start moving on it's own.

[bruceleegreyhulk]

[Jcogginsa]

I've fallen in love with Epithet Erased

[Postmania]

Dragon Age Dreadwolf stuff leaked, looks like a very action-y game, more to it's detriment than it's advantage.

[Jcogginsa]

Dragon Age Dreadwolf stuff leaked, looks like a very action-y game, more to it's detriment than it's advantage.

Apparently they took inspiration from God of War 2018

[Sharpandpointies]

Well, that's not great. It's 2023, I had hoped we were past the whole 'woman in heels with chest hanging out' character design for.

More fool me.

Dragon Age Dreadwolf stuff leaked, looks like a very action-y game, more to it's detriment than it's advantage.

Yeah, lots of people on Tumblr praying that this isn't real or is not what it seems. I'm not heavily invested in DA any more, due to...well, YEARS away from it and Inquisition being a relentless slog (hopefully Bioware has realized the 'open world with endless fetch-quests iz better than a detailed storyline!' thing died a gruesome death in the late 20-teens).

We'll see how it goes.

[Nik Hasta]

Well, that's not great. It's 2023, I had hoped we were past the whole 'woman in heels with chest hanging out' character design for.

More fool me.

I mean, while I understand the sentiment; it's Nina. She and her sister Anna have been wearing evening dresses and high heels in combat since the 90s. Saying "I thought we were beyond this," more shows you don't follow Tekken very closely because their designs have either been "slinky secret agent catsuit," or "evening dresses and high heels," for a long time.

If anything Nina's design is a considerably more restrained and practical when compared to her outfit in the last game:



Overall though, for my money, Tekken's designs have classically not been that male gaze-y in the grand scheme of things. Dead Or Alive, older Mortal Kombat titles, and even some aspects of Street Fighter have all been more egregious.

[Noldere]

I feel like in Tekken 8 (and 7) the idea is that Nina is getting into fights immediately after the kind of social event where such dress is either expected or at least not out of place. Whether that's a logical or illogical thing I'll leave for others to determine.

If there's no alternative costumes for when that idea no longer makes sense... then yeah, I can definitely see and understand where that miffs (though I personally can't muster the energy to care about the matter).

[Sharpandpointies]

I mean, while I understand the sentiment; it's Nina. She and her sister Anna have been wearing evening dresses and high heels in combat since the 90s. Saying "I thought we were beyond this," more shows you don't follow Tekken very closely because their designs have either been "slinky secret agent catsuit," or "evening dresses and high heels," for a long time.

I think you've missed my point - my response to that would be 'yes, they've had these designs for some time, great, it's 2023, maybe time to move past this and change the designs?'

'Since the 90's' is kind of the issue. It's not the 90's. And 'it has always been this way' is an appeal to tradition.

If anything Nina's design is a considerably more restrained and practical when compared to her outfit in the last game:

Which is great, and yet there is clear room for improvement on that side.

Overall though, for my money, Tekken's designs have classically not been that male gaze-y in the grand scheme of things. Dead Or Alive, older Mortal Kombat titles, and even some aspects of Street Fighter have all been more egregious.

Absolutely. Dead or Alive stuff is appalling, I've seen a wealth of Very Poor Choices™ in both Street Fighter and King of Fighters, etc. It's a thing with fighting games. And yes, Tekken stuff does tend to be more restrained (I don't play it, but have glanced at the stuff over the years, so I have some idea).

That said...again, still room for improvement, lots. 'This one isn't as bad as those ones' has traditionally been a way to excuse this kind of thing <-- not saying you're doing that, not your style, just noting that this is how it is often used - and not look to saying 'but there is still room to make this better'.

[Nik Hasta]

I think you've missed my point - my response to that would be 'yes, they've had these designs for some time, great, it's 2023, maybe time to move past this and change the designs?'

'Since the 90's' is kind of the issue. It's not the 90's. And 'it has always been this way' is an appeal to tradition.

You're missing my point. I'm not saying that it being an established design for more than 30 odd years excuses whatever objections you might have to it. I'm more commenting on you being like "I thought we were past this," when Anna and Nina have had similar variants on their designs in use not just since 1994 but as recently as 2019 when Anna was added to Tekken 7.

Like, I know you don't follow Tekken but it's just an odd thing to me, who is more familiar, that you'd find it surprising or particularly disappointing that their designs were entirely consistent with the decades that have gone before. Albeit, a bit more restrained to be closer in line with more modern sensibilities.

It's akin to me being like "Doctor Strange still wearing his cape of levitation, a medallion and some kind of blue shirt? I thought we were past this,"

My reaction is like "when were we ever past this for this character?"

My reference of other games is to highlight that there's less pressure on Tekken as a franchise because they have been comparatively a bit ahead of the curve on their female character designs being a bit less horny, hence big design shifts are less likely. Like, the change for Mortal Kombat between 9 and 10, because they'd been much more strongly criticised over it, was really quite striking in terms of toning things down.

I'm on my work computer so looking up what is essentially a bunch of booby ladies to post isn't a wise idea, but look up the difference between Jade in MK9 and Jade in MK10.

And then you have stuff like the development of Ivy from Soul Calibur and Baiken from Guilty Gear wherein I think their designs have been made worse as time has gone on as they've gotten hornier.

Like, with the former, it's Ivy, she's a sexy dominatrix woman - it's kind of built into her design to be extremely horny, so there's a limit to how much I can be annoyed by it. With Baiken though, man, I really hate how her now comically enormous rack has become so central to her design. GG: Missing Link to GGX-2 was a much more restrained and fun design for me.

[Nik Hasta]

Also, there's a whole larger discussion about the moral value ascribed to "good" and "bad" designs when it comes to sex appeal and the like, but that's a lot more nuanced to be sure.

*points toward the entirety of the discourse around Bayonetta as a feminist character*

And, as fighting game characters are largely built around broad, recognisable and appealing designs rather than any kind of real complexity to their characters, it's a pretty specific arena to have that conversation in.

[Sharpandpointies]

You're missing my point. I'm not saying that it being an established design for more than 30 odd years excuses whatever objections you might have to it. I'm more commenting on you being like "I thought we were past this," when Anna and Nina have had similar variants on their designs in use not just since 1994 but as recently as 2019 when Anna was added to Tekken 7.

I get this, thank you for the clarification.

My point, specifically, to clarify, is that in the last say five, seven years we've seen (supposedly) some changes in society even further than before. Changes that have, in some ways, spilled into the video game industry as well. I don't expect big changes between the 90's and 2010, as an example, because nothing really did change in that time. But since then, there have been changes, and there continue to be changes. At least in outlook, and how people are talking about this stuff.

That the newest version of the character doesn't reflect those changes...well, that's one reason to say 'supposedly' there have been changes. Like, why not? And at what point does one say 'okay, this should be tackled or discussed'? Why not now?

'I thought we were past this' referring to this thing in a general sense (and no, I know we're not 'there' yet, wherever 'there' is, but 'I thought we were past this' is kind of slang for 'I thought we were making some headway on this, why is this coming up again?').

Like, I know you don't follow Tekken but it's just an odd thing to me, who is more familiar, that you'd find it surprising or particularly disappointing that their designs were entirely consistent with the decades that have gone before. Albeit, a bit more restrained to be closer in line with more modern sensibilities.

Again, I get your point; again, things have changed further in the last few years (maybe?) so seeing the same sort of thing is annoying for me.

Maybe it's not that for you, that's cool. But for me, it's just more of the status quo. Because with the new iteration, still happening.

My reaction is like "when were we ever past this for this character?"

To which my reaction is "when will we start saying 'this isn't appropriate, why is it still this way?'" I get from your point of view, as explained, that it's weird for you that I'm questioning this. Fair enough!

I think it's then fair to say it's a little weird for me that I say 'Why is this still happening?' and the reply is basically a defense of why it's still happening and that it's weird that I'm thinking this way about Tekken. I mean, the post was about Tekken, specifically.

My reference of other games is to highlight that there's less pressure on Tekken as a franchise because they have been comparatively a bit ahead of the curve on their female character designs being a bit less horny, hence big design shifts are less likely. Like, the change for Mortal Kombat between 9 and 10, because they'd been much more strongly criticised over it, was really quite striking in terms of toning things down.

Which, again, is other games for me. That's great for Mortal Kombat if they're heading in the correct direction. And it's great that Tekken has been somewhat more restrained that other games. Right now, though, I'm looking at Tekken, and these are my thoughts on Tekken.

And then you have stuff like the development of Ivy from Soul Calibur and Baiken from Guilty Gear wherein I think their designs have been made worse as time has gone on as they've gotten hornier.

Like, with the former, it's Ivy, she's a sexy dominatrix woman - it's kind of built into her design to be extremely horny, so there's a limit to how much I can be annoyed by it. With Baiken though, man, I really hate how her now comically enormous rack has become so central to her design. GG: Missing Link to GGX-2 was a much more restrained and fun design for me.

Soul Calibur has issues as well, and one might say 'Great, Ivy was made to be a dominatrix, the design is natural for the character', but then we get into the issue of 'it's natural for a fictional character who was chosen by a dude to be that kind of character, so it's not like the character themselves has agency in that decision'. It's the designer's decision, like with Quiet in Metal Gear Solid.

But, not to beat a dead horse, movie was Tekken, I was commenting on the movie.

Also, there's a whole larger discussion about the moral value ascribed to "good" and "bad" designs when it comes to sex appeal and the like, but that's a lot more nuanced to be sure.

Which is fine for a larger discussion, but doesn't obviate the fact that someone can point to a specific game and game company and say 'look, why design your characters - specifically yours - like this?'.

And, as fighting game characters are largely built around broad, recognisable and appealing designs rather than any kind of real complexity to their characters, it's a pretty specific arena to have that conversation in.

Perspectives can differ on this, as people can choose their arenas, as you put it.

[Iron_Twister]

So my takes...Fujio has definitely gotten an upgrade in that very subtle yet it's very noticeable at times kind of way.

And Binzo is a goddamn monster to tank hits and then laugh off a kick that turned him to a rag doll. Like maybe a ten second KO at best but Binzo just found it amusing and got up wanting more. This guy just gives off Murayama vibes and that's great.

Edit: ...And apparently it's said by the writers that Binzo was actually nerfing himself in the fight, using only his right arm and leg to attack just to see how strong Fujio is...If that's true then damn.

[Sharpandpointies]

So my takes...Fujio has definitely gotten an upgrade in that very subtle yet it's very noticeable at times kind of way.

And Binzo is a goddamn monster to tank hits and then laugh off a kick that turned him to a rag doll. Like maybe a ten second KO at best but Binzo just found it amusing and got up wanting more. This guy just gives off Murayama vibes and that's great.

Edit: ...And apparently it's said by the writers that Binzo was actually nerfing himself in the fight, using only his right arm and leg to attack just to see how strong Fujio is...If that's true then damn.

Fujio has gotten a hell of an upgrade. He's now easily into the range of the old High&Low group. Fights a little like Cobra, frankly.

Binzo...Binzo looks like he's stronger than Murayama, but not as skilled. He's a whole lot more wild with his fighting style, whereas Murayama was a wild guy, but had a pretty tight fighting style. But the vibes are similar; not quite the same, but similar (Murayama wouldn't have taken a shot at someone getting held like that, if he had proclaimed he would fight that guy alone).

Looks good. When will Netflix get this, arrrgh.

[Iron_Twister]

Fujio has gotten a hell of an upgrade. He's now easily into the range of the old High&Low group. Fights a little like Cobra, frankly.

Binzo...Binzo looks like he's stronger than Murayama, but not as skilled. He's a whole lot more wild with his fighting style, whereas Murayama was a wild guy, but had a pretty tight fighting style. But the vibes are similar; not quite the same, but similar (Murayama wouldn't have taken a shot at someone getting held like that, if he had proclaimed he would fight that guy alone).

Looks good. When will Netflix get this, arrrgh.

Yeah...Apparently these are straight up out on DVD/Blu Ray by now.

Also, Todoroki continues to be the strongest guy in Post-Murayama Oya.



Guy taking out numbers in the span of a short phone call like he's goddamn Batman.